"Beginner" 67 Vette Questions

[Scott]

My wife and I purchased a '67 Coupe in Nov 99. We had been looking for about a year and did some homework before we took the plunge. Now that we have started comparing numbers we find ourselves confused! Thanks in advance for all your help and "yes", we joined NCRS last week. What we do know: The VIN matches the block. The correct heads, alternator, carb, transmission and rear end remain intact.


Questions: 1. The engine build date indicates the same exact day as the casting date, is this possible? Our research shows that there should be a couple of weeks separating the two numbers.


2. The tank sticker (only the lower two thirds remains) shows “Air Injector Reactor” (K19) as an option but our engine suffix code is “HE”. All of the books that we have read state an “HE” block did not come with this option, is this correct?


3. I pulled the tank today for the purpose of removing the sticker. Any suggestions on removal (if I should remove it), techniques for removal and preservation of the sticker?

[Wayne W.]

Re: "Beginner" 67 Vette Questions

Sound a little close to me. What are the dates?

[Terry M.]

Re: "Beginner" 67 Vette Questions

Scott, Same casting date and assembly date can happen, although not often, in small blocks. I have seen it more than a few times in 1968-1972.


Most cases of this are mis-reads of casting date. 3, 6, 8 and sometimes 0 all can look enough alike in the cast date to be confusing. Sometimes even the letter for the month in the cast date can be mis-read, I and J can be confused. After that there is always the chance that the person putting in the cast date was careless and put in the wrong date. Or the assembly date stamp was not changed first thing in the morning. I'll amend this post with the issue and date of the story about casting dates that appeared in The Restorer some years ago.


Now that I have raised the sector of a incorrect assembly stamp at Flint, I must tell you that the folks doing that task in the early '80s were very strong in their statements that NEVER happened. They insisted that they had been doing that since the '60s and EVERY morning the first task was to change all the dates on all the stamps (there were dozens in the '80s, there were more varieties in the '60s). They built more than 45 MILLION engines in that plant - there was a VERY strong quality ethic in that plant for all of its years, but in the ‘60s a lot of good men were off at war, some never to return - you believe what you want.


The other possibility (and this is only "educated" guesswork) is the foundry (in Saginaw) could have cast the case on the first shift and 30 to 40 miles away Flint assembled it on the second shift. I believe foundries typically start very early in the morning to avoid the heat of the day. When I was associated with that business in the '60s 4 AM was a typical start.


If production in the engine plant was good they could have been working two ten hour shifts (the 4 hours "off" were for clean up and machine maintenance). Thus they could have been assembling engines as late as 11PM or Midnight.


All speculation aside, it is interesting; but not unheard of.


Terry

[Tom B.]

Re: "Beginner" 67 Vette Questions

Scott,


I'm not sure that you have one reference book that would be of value to you. It's by Nolan Adams, "The Complete Corvette Restoration and Technical Guide - Vol. 2 1963 Through 1967". I think Wayne and Terry have already covered the date and stamping for your engine assembly and block already, but additionally there are examples of engine block cast dates and their corresponding stamped engine assembly dates listed at the end of the yearly chapters in Nolan's book. A few of the small block examples will show an engine assembly within one day of the casting date.


As you've already noticed, the HE designation compared to the K19 option listed on your build sheet seems to be a contradiction. I suppose there's the chance that your engine pad was mistakenly stamped or possibly an error occured with what your build sheet called for. Additional information from Nolan's book states that the 327/300 HH (K19) engines had different carbureators and distributors than the 327/300 HE (non-K19). If you can determine yours to be original to your car then you may want find which direction things will point.


The build sheet (tank sticker) that you have found, I would remove and preserve since they are considered to be an important piece of documentation for your car. Which best way to accomplish that may be up to you, since I have no "best way" suggestion. Hope this has helped. TBarr #24014

[Scott]

Re: "Beginner" 67 Vette Questions

Wayne,


Our build date is "V0403HE" and the casting date is "D037".

[Wayne M.]

Re: "Beginner" 67 Vette Questions

Terry --- Could this be a case where de-coding the casting "clock" (ie. postion of dial and type of screw) should at least show an "early-in-the-day" cast, to give credence to the "assembled-later-same-day" assembly scenario ?

[Jack H.]

Re: "Beginner" 67 Vette Questions

Terry, if memory serves, Saginaw's Grey Iron process, while discrete, is virtually continuous. Why shut down pour buckets and smelter lines once they're up to temp? Hence, it's common for steel/glass fab lines to run round the clock making three shifts/day....


You remember geography correct! It's about 30 miles from Saginaw to Flint....


Engine plant could run 3-shifts per day, but is rather easy to cut back to 2 or 1 shift and duck the shift premium pay.


Where all this is going, is I too have seen the occassional 'renegade' where casting and engine assy was done on the same day. In the two case where I observed this, the block's casting clock indicated third shift build from the night before (just after midnight).


Seems to imply, things went 'just right' and block was cast at the start of the day (literally), picked up by morning truck to Flint, and fed the line there for 2nd/3rd shift....

[Jack H.]

Bottom line

Both Terry McManmon and I speculate further on the same day engine phenomenon in this thread. But, if the other dated parts seem to fall into place and you're happy with the car, don't get overly anxious. NCRS Rules allow 0-6 month before final assembly with the benefit of the doubt ALWAYS going to the owner.


But, if it's 'eating' on you (the same day engine mystery), go check the cylinder case's casting clock. If it shows a late 2nd or 3rd shift pour on the date the pad was wacked at Flint, it's time to believe there's a real 'funny' here....

[Patrick H.]

Re: "Beginner" 67 Vette Questions

Also, not to confuse the issue even further, but there are documented instances of the wrong sticker being on the wrong car. 1967 was the first year for this, and later years improved.


Just a thought, not necessarily saying it is the fact here. You may see if a handwritten Job number is written on the sticker, and if it matches the Job number written elsewhere on the car.


Patrick Hulst

[Terry M.]

Re: "Beginner" 67 Vette Questions

Scott,


I think Jack and Wayne have hit the nail on the head. Checking Noland's book for the casting clock ought to help confirm the chance of start of day cast, end of day assembly. Jack may be closer to actual shifts than I. My casting experience was in research - not production. We tried to avoid visiting the production shops. Talk about the fringes of hades - I hope modernization and mechanization has improved those conditions. If so, some of my work helped.


From the date you posted it looks like there is little chance of reading error.


As someone said, no reason to be upset. These kind of things happen and an experienced judge will comment, smile and move on. Those folks were building engines - lots and lots of engines. They had a system - a darn good one - sometimes it was so good it surprises us.


Terry

[Wayne W.]

Re: "Beginner" 67 Vette Questions

So much for seasoning a block.