BODY TRIM TAG WRONG, What would you do?

[Clare Carpenter]

Fellow members, this question was posed on the Corvette Forum. It's an interesting situation and I am curious how some of you would approach it, if your goal was to have your car judged according to NCRS standards?

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1047958

>>Chuck

The reason I ask about reproduction tags is because I have a tag problem with my car. I bought a project car with the intent of making it a nice correct looking driver with the original engine. One of my first learning experiences was with the tag. The tag reads Green/Black but as I started striping off the old paint I learned that there was maroon under there. A little research and some head-scratching later I discovered that my trim plate is from a car that was made April 1, 65 (April Fools day how ironic) My vin birthday is Jan 19, 65. Its not likley they go together. Since then I've been documenting every 65 roadster tag I see to narrow down the body number of my car. Right now I have info for cars within days of my build date and with a little math I think I have my body Number figured out within 1 or 2.

Since green isnt my favorite color, it makes no sense for me to paint the car green now that I know all this. I would like a reproduction tag with the colors that I want and that looks at real as possible. I guess why Im rambling on is because Im wondering what makes it so easy to spot a fake? Is it incorrect info on the tag that the owner didnt research enough or is it something about the stamping process that isnt correct? Im not trying to win top flight with it I just want a tag that looks right. If there so bad that a naked bar is better than a repo tag Id like to hear about it.

By the way anyone want to buy a 65 tag Green / Black Leather / Body # S4544.

[Robert C.]

Re: BODY TRIM TAG WRONG, What would you do?

Claire, There is a new book out that spells out the trim tag differences. There are ways to LOOK at the tag and tell.

[Joseph T.]

Re: BODY TRIM TAG WRONG, What would you do?

Clare

Years ago I interviewed the guy that stamped the trim tags at the plant during the mid 60's. At the beginning of the shift he would sign out a specific number of VIN plates and these had to be accounted for when the shift was over.

However when stamping the trim code plates..when a mistake was noticed the plate was thrown away and another stamped and installed.

Cetainly not all installed plates were 100% accurate.

If I had a plate that was in question I would study it very closley and study the cars history before jumping to replace it..too quickly.

Maybe other posters that have 1st hand knowledge at the plant can help advise you.

[Clare Carpenter]

Re: BODY TRIM TAG WRONG, What would you do?

Yes I know. Al Grenning's book. It is mentioned also on the thread I referred to above. In this situation, the owner, (65RDSTR) knows he has the wrong trim tag, (although it's apparently an original "borrowed" from another car) and reflects the current color of his car, which is not the correct original color.

There in lies the problem. What is the best solution? Bare, repro, or try to find a correct tag, almost an impossibility??

[Rick S.]

Re: BODY TRIM TAG WRONG, What would you do?

Clare,
I know how you feel. I have a 67 roadster that has incorrect stamped color trim tag. I feel it is the original trim tag but have not had it checked. I have talked to the first owner who confirmed that the color on the car is the color that it was when he bought it off the showroom floor. The guy punching out the trim tags at the factory missed the last digit by one, a three instead of a four. The already removed tank sticker shows the correct color. All I have to do is to convince the (growing older by the minute) first owner to put something in writing and maybe dig up an old photo he says he has of the car.

A frustated 4th owner,
Rick

[Clare Carpenter]

Re: BODY TRIM TAG WRONG, What would you do?

Just to clarify this IS NOT my car. The question/situation was posted on the Corvette Forum and I was curious how NCRS mid year guys might approach this problem given the same set of circumstances.

I have a friend, who (10yrs ago) had a freshly restored and documented 427/435 roadster judged, with both the NCRS & Bloomington). First judging was at a NCRS big regional event. Everything went okay until judges observed that the date codes on the block were more than 6mos prior to build date, 7mos, if I recall correctly. After that discovery, they began scrutinizing the pad more closely. All involved gathering around in a Pow Wow. Long story short the judges decided it couldn't have been the original engine because at that time, engines were not "inventoried" that long and so a block dated 7mos prior to the build date could not be an original engine.

I won't bore everyone with all the details of the oddessy that followed but eventually the car Top Flighted and got Bloomington Gold, with a properly dated block, that had NEVER been stamped until built specifically for this car. This replacement block was stamped (not restamped) and passed with flying colors. It didn't fool anyone, all the judges had judged the car before and knew the history. After looking at the new block and pad, they said, "ah, I see you found your original engine" (or something to that effect), with a smile and a wink.

Since in this case, all previous owners had been contacted and they all agreed that the engine had never been replaced, I believe that a "mistake" may have been made. Perhaps the original engine was replaced in the quest for Top Flight and Gold, or perhaps not.

"Mistakes" could get made at the factory and mistakes can be made in judging too.

[Page C.]

Re: BODY TRIM TAG WRONG, What would you do?

Hi Clare,
This Trim tag was for sale on E-bay a little over a year ago.
Hope this helps,
Page Campbell

[Clare Carpenter]

(Message Deleted by Poster)

Message Deleted by Poster

[William C.]

Re: BODY TRIM TAG WRONG, What would you do?

OK, There are a variety of options as to how to deal with this car, none of which include it ever becoming a high dollar show car. Under virtually any combination of circumstances the car would get caught in judging whether with a tag that does not match the vin relative to build date, or a repro tag. This leaves the options of either the current owner building a nice car to his or her liking and enjoying it for some time to come, realizing it is not a "Top Flight" show candidate. The second is sell the car to someone who does not care about "numbers" (Parts?) and find a project with a greater likelyhood of a successful outcome if your goal is the show field.

[Clare Carpenter]

Re: BODY TRIM TAG WRONG, What would you do?

>>65 tag Green / Black Leather / Body # S4544

[Robert C.]

Re: BODY TRIM TAG WRONG, What would you do?

Clare, One thing that can be done is to run a history on the car and go back to the past owners and "BEG" for the original tag,letting them know that no action would be taken if its returned. This method has worked in the past!
As far as "Mistakes on the judging field", I believe you missed the point. The wink in the judges eye mean't that he knew the engine was restamped, but it was such a good restamp that he couldn't find a deduction. This is the RESTORERS society.
Bob Cook

[Mark #28455]

is it possible two cars became one? *NM*

[Clare Carpenter]

Re: BODY TRIM TAG WRONG, What would you do?

Regarding my recounting of my friend's 67 427/435 originally judged as having a NOM. Here's the rest of the story for those who might be interested.

My reference to "mistakes" on the judging field was that the supposed original block in question, being dated several months earlier than the build date of the car, was disallowed (according to the judging rules) on this car. Therefore, the stamp pad wasn't judged but it WAS very carefully scrutinized. It was even photgraphed by Al Grenning. Due to the casting date this car could never Top Flight with this block, (original or not).

This car was fully documented and all of the previous private owners of the car, including the original purchaser, had been spoken to by the current owner and said the engine had never been changed or replaced. Now if that is true, then the engine as judged the first time was in fact, the original motor, as installed at the factory, even if the casting date was a couple of months outside the 6 months allowed by judging rules. If this was a factory anomoly then was it a "mistake" on the part of the judges? NO, because they held to the written rules; i.e. the casting date must be within 6mos of the build date of the car.

Perhaps, you could say it was a "mistake" in the rules. Maybe the NCRS should give judges a couple months extra leway, case by case. That is not for me to decide. Now my friend, he wasn't very happy to discover his car wouldn't Top Flight with this engine but because that was his goal, he set out to find a block with the proper casting date. Welcome to the club.

Interestingly, this car had passed thru a well known dealer's hand who did nothing to the car in terms of restoration or reconditioning. They sold it to another well known Corvette business, (has a dealer license but not their primary business) who restored the car. My friend bought it sight unseen, based on the quality of their work and the documentation the car had. He never checked the casting dates, (it's a learing process, right?). Apparently the restorer didn't either, (or maybe he didn't know the window on NCRS Judging rules) because the car was sold as a documented, matching numbers, original motor car and that is what the buyer's order stated. The bottom line was my friend ended up getting $10K back, he found a correct dated-unstamped block, and found the right guy to properly stamp it. The car judged Bloomington Gold, and later Top Flighted in a regional. Like I said, no one was fooled, everyone by then knew the car well.

Was there a factory "mistake"? Was this engine laying around a month or two longer than the norm before being installed into this car? Who knows, but I have always wondered if it was the original motor in the car when it was judged the first time? If it WAS the original motor, then it was swapped out for no other reason except to get the coveted Top Flight and Bloomington Gold.

Ps: Good suggestion on the tag. Probably a long shot on the car in question but worth a try anyway. I'll pass it along.

[Jack H.]

Re: BODY TRIM TAG WRONG, What would you do?

What you describe (engine date(s) following the car's build date) could have happened. Here's a scenario:

Car went down the final line and the original engine failed on initial start. It was pulled from the assy flow and sent to a repair pit. The engine was removed and the car SAT in the repair area for QUITE a while (VERY unusual for a whole 2-months to elapse) before a newer, replacement engine was installed and the car completed its final assy run.

Now, 'could' and 'did' are different issues. On whether the judges made an 'error', I think they did not!

NCRS judges according to published standards and the key is these standards are based on TYPICAL production. We all know there were incidents of 'atypical' production and in those cases the burden of proof falls upon the owner.

The problem is, once you open the door to accept what could have/might have happened, a myraid of loopholes open up to those with 'cooked' cars. The judges went by the book using the 0-6 month rule and, here, the dates fell outside of that range.

Now, if the owner had affidavits from the original owners, he had the opportunity to appeal the judging (rules on this are in the NCRS Judging Reference Manual, the 'white book') by presenting his 'proof'. Often, individual judges are over-ruled when 'proof' of an atypical factory production episode is presented in the appeal process. But, it appears the owner failed to pursue this option....

Last, there's NO WAY, an 'incorrect' engine block, stamp pad, Etc. will force a Corvette out of Top Flight contention at NCRS. If the balance of the car's judging (including milage driven bonus points) resulted in a score of 94% or better, the car would have gotten a Top Flight Award!

Now, this (wrong engine) is true of the 'competition' (NCCB/Bloomington). In their system, certain elements of the car are considered 'sacred' and if a car failes to cut the muster in those areas, it's 'boxed out' meaning it won't receive a Gold Certificate regardless of its overall judging score.

So, I think there's some 'myth' and mis-information in your post, Clare....

[Joseph T.]

Re: BODY TRIM TAG WRONG, What would you do?

Years ago when I interviewed John Evans the chief inspector at the St.Louis plant...from the beginning.

He said one day a corvette show job was returned to the plant. He instructed one of the boys..to dismantle the car and return the parts to the parts bins.

He said as long as the parts were still authorized by engineering and had not been superceded..the parts could be re-used.

I suspect these parts would fall outside the general time guideline for judging...when used on a later car going down the line.

Judges are people and do their best to follow the guidelines...

The story I offer above gives us cause to study further and adjust the guidelines when enough information is researched.

I remember seeing a brand new 78 pace car at Bloomington years ago still in the wrappers. The factory accidentally installed a fabric door panel on one side and leather door panel on the other side. Whoops!