engine broaching marks
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Re: engine broaching marks Hi RAY
Ray
I feel the same way in thinking I don't care who judges a Corvette ( which most are vary good at it).. But the big bugaboo is always the engine pad or paint color.NCRS is truly trying their best and I feel their vary worried (at the top)about liability in putting down on PAPER for the owner , a statement that the engine number is correct which an owner can use to stop all this confusion among other judges. So they just let it float around in the air , which in turn gives every judge , every time, pressure to make a judgment call on an original pad (markings). Same with paint color! They try to pass it off , to say the owner can still make top flight on other parts or using driven points.
Because the engine , which they or any one might say , doesn't hid the fact that it is a BIG deal to owners weather they keep or sell the Corvette.
Every one talks about original engines when buying!!!!
Of all the members there must be one lawyer that would know how to put down on paper (once an engine is truly verified) in that Corvette , to that owner, to stop all this over and over argument on the same Corvette at different meets (is the engine original) and if that Corvette is ever sold the document is void till the new owner again shows it to be re-inspected.
And again I've heard no other thoughts on how to solve this argument ONLY ARGUMENTS( I feel that most people are worried to express or put their head in the fire with idea's having their name used).
I'm #182 so I think I can say I've heard this argument and many others over and over for a few years,
I do like making people think about our hobby, ( I hope it's still a hobby$$$??) and have come to realize and accept the fact that people ether like you or hate you ,and when you reach the twilight age , that makes life much more simple .
AND IT'S QUESTIONS LIKE AM ASKING IS WHY SOME PEOPLE DON'T WONT TO MEET ME AND I'M OK WITH THAT!!!- Top
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Re: should the NCRS encourage participation?
If people want NCRS to grow, new people should not feel intimidated and feel free to show there cars with a fair shot. I know some people that will not show thier cars for this reason. It is a shame because they are good cars and the people have a lot to offer NCRS.
How many cars have all original parts. I know that my car has more original part than most restored cars as I have owned it 27 years and repo parts were not available. What makes my factory side exhaust covers more valuble that a repo? And if it is, should it be as improtant and weighted as much as the block? Why not? Picking the block over everything else that is freely change, without predudice is inconsistant. A block is one part and a repoed fuel tank is also one part. They both amount to one part each.
If a guy wants to spend to bucks and buy a block with the right casting and date numbers and restore the pad, JUST LIKE PEOPLE RESTORE OR INSTALL REPO stuff, what is the diferance if it is a block or a set of hub caps, big brakes, DATED WINDOW GLASS. Dated repo window glass could also be construed as fraud.
The discussion is a good one.
Jon- Top
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Re: engine broaching marks
Kevin,
In January I went to Old Town fully intending to buy the Trim Tag book. However, at $50, it was really hard to justify. Each of Noland's books were roughly $50 when they came out and you can still get them of about $70 today. And look at the difference in material.
And when it gets down to the bottom line, most don't care. They buy their Corvettes because they like the color or the engine or it is fast or they always wanted a red '65 convertible, not because they used a book to determine the trim tag was orginal.
I figure I will go on the way I've always gone. If it looks right, buy it. If it looks funny or I have that gut feeling it is wrong, walk away. 99.9% or everyone else doesn't have the book, either.- Top
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It depends on the engine.
If the price is high enough, you find an unstamped block, and stamp it. The broach marks are factory.
Do you think someone with a '67 435 hp convertible that may sell for $175,000 with the "original" block or $50,000 with an NOM is going to worry about paying $10,000 to get an "original" block?
You wouldn't do that on a 250 '63 but on a 435 hp '67 or an L88 or several others, it is financially feasible.
And if you go to the right years, you can find enough passenger blocks without partial VINs that make your work easy.
As long as it is profitable to fake a block, it will be done. And it has been profitable for a long time, even if it is only for NCRS judging to get those few extra points.- Top
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WELL SAID! points should be fairly distributed
You hit the nail right on the head! Why do people restamp blocks? Because there is a large "marginal value" to having the "matching numbers" block. There are a huge number of points to be had in the engine block so if the car overall is worth $50,000 then the restamp block is "worth" spending $3000 to buy. We - the NCRS members - have fueled the entire restamping craze because we are the largest group of enthusiasts to actually give a hoot about the pad stamping! If the block were treated like any other component in allocation of judging points, this craze would only be seen on the highest dollar cars if anywhere at all.
Just about every other part is worth less than 50 to 100 points. What if the total applied to the engine block were 50 points and it was distributed as follows:
Correct block type (SB vs BB) - hey, you even get points for a "wrong" AC Delco late model battery, so give a few points - 5 points.
Correct block type with correct casting number - 30 points.
Correct block type, casting number and casting date - 35 points.
Then give 5 points each to the pad stamping date, suffix code, and VIN number for a total of 50 points. (yes, you would need "correct" broach marks to get these final points)
This system would bring the block scoring more in line with all the other parts and would truly make it a huge waste of money to invest in a restamped block when you could get 40 out of 50 points just by having a date code correct passenger car block - you would be able to get points for the broach marks and the pad machining date stamping but would lose 10 points for the suffix and VIN codes.
I bet it would solve the dilemma but does anyone have the guts to give it a try? Just my 2 cents.
Mark- Top
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The value of an original block is the issue
I agree that NCRS puts a heavier emphasis on the orginality of the engine block and the correct stamping of the block. However the true issue is the value placed on owning a Corvette with an original engine and greed. People are willing to pay big dollars to own a Corvette with the original block. Based on that, dishonest people are willing to buy a NOM Corvette and have the block restamped to misrepresent it as an original block. I do not see this changing.
One of the few ways to feel comfortable that you are buying a Corvette with an original block is to buy one that has been judged (original engine with broach marks and correct engine stamps) by the NCRS.
That is why it is very troubling to buy a car judged by the NCRS at one meet and then have the potential to have it judged at another meet as an incorrect block. This risk alone will keep people from having their cars judged again by NCRS. I sincerely doubt that the NCRS wants this to be a reason why people do not want to show their car at an NCRS meet. There needs to be a way to have the block judged for originality once and documented by the NCRS and not rejudged over and over.- Top
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Thus the term "numbers matching" verses...
"original". It's a legal issue so buyer beware with the terms "numbers matching". I would venture that well over 50% of the C1, C2, C3 high performance motors do not have their "original" engine blocks.
My understanding is that at Bloomington judging you can declare the block as non original. During judging a separate group of judges look at the rubbing from the pad, which haven't seen the declaration, and you can still walk away with a "gold" rating if the block stamping is done well enough.
I would venture that of the cars that were judged top flight with the correct stamp pad in today's market many are restamps. I had an "engine restorer" tell me that he watched mid year big block cars get judged and two of them were declared "correct" and one wasn't. He said the interesting part is he stamped all three engines. Go figure.
A poor fake seems to fool the average person these days. I just looked at a '69 RS/Z28 Camaro with a price in the upper $90s that was clearly a poor restamp job on the engine and transmission. Like another post stated a lot of buyers out there are buying the cars because the like the engine option and/or the color.- Top
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Re: The value of an original block is the issue
Is the purpose of the NCRS to certify blocks as original for resale? I thought the purpose was to determine how closely the Corvette appears to resemble the "as delivered from the factory standard." The fact that a Corvette has achieved a top flight award does not mean that the block is original. It means that the entire Corvette has not sustained enough point deductions to fall below the number necessary for top flight. What happens to the original judging sheets after a Corvette is judged? I have seen Corvettes for sale with "judging sheets" of questionable origin. Judges are not infallible and a wrong call on an original block can have as much economic impact as an undetectable restamp.- Top
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What happens to score sheets?
The answer is simple...they are returned to the club member who owns the car. NCRS does NOT photocopy/retain score sheets. The only thing retained by the club is the Judging Summary Sheet (what was the raw score in each area of Flight Judging? + how many 'bonus' points were added for milage driven credits & what was the final outcome...no Flight Award, 3rd Flight, 2nd Flight, Top Flight).
I think the reason why we don't retain Flight Score Sheets is because our policy is to ENCOURAGE each owner to improve on his/her restoration, there should be no blow by blow 'memory' of how this/that car fared the last time it was judged, and each showing starts as a clean slate.- Top
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Re: WELL SAID! points should be fairly distributed
We - the NCRS members - have fueled the entire restamping craze because we are the largest group of enthusiasts to actually give a hoot about the pad stamping!
Well, NCRS can't take all the credit, some has to go to Bloomington Gold. But it is the restoration groups who have insisted that only an original engine is any good who have fueled this belief in the general public.
And after you take a $4000 sports car and spend $40,000 restoring it, whatever engine there is as good or better, usually better, than what came down the line 40 years ago in St. Louis.
Expect in the mind of those buying and selling.- Top
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Re: The value of an original block is the issue
I bought my first corvette in 1958 . Yes , new panama yellow.$3500 out the door.Loved it. Had 3 children & sold. Need a wagon.35 years later I now have 2 mid years because they look & sound like a piece of art. It is important to me that as much of car possible is orginal. In particular motor block, paint color, trany, diff. Thats why I joined NCRS to swap ideas with the rest with you. I drive them for pleasure every day. Its therapy. Regards, Don- Top
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Re: The value of an original block is the issue
Hi John:
I agree with you that it is the market value, more than the NCRS juging system, that leads to so much emphasis on "matching numbers."
Out of the 350 points assigned to the block, only 88 points are assigned to the pad. Most Corvettes use blocks that GM also used in passenger cars or trucks, so it is not difficult to find a block that has the the correct casting number and an appropriate date.
The hit for having a totally incorrect pad is only 2% of the total score, so someone who is only interested in NCRS judging points could locate a suitable block (casting number and casting date), do NOTHING to fix the pad, and theoretically still get a Dontov. I think this shows that the NCRS judging system does not place undue emphasis on the pad.
I would argue that it is not the NCRS that drives people to spend $$$ restamping blocks. I think it is the market value associated with "numbers matching" or "original engine" Corvettes. The NCRS has simply made it harder (more expensive) for people to fake an original engine.- Top
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NCRS and Bloomington fueled the fire
Remember the 1970's? I don't think there was an original engine 1957 Corvette left, but now look and somehow they ALL have the original fuel injected engines! I worked in the performance business 25 years ago and we decked a LOT of Corvette blocks. Don't kid yourself, prior to the NCRS and Bloomington Gold, almost nobody even knew what the correct casting numbers were let alone the stamped numbers. By the way, 2% of the total points for the pad stampings is 1/3 of the way to not getting a top flite award. If you figure $10 per point, that's just under $900 value for the stamping pad. Funny how the laws of economics have come into play and getting your block broached and restamped costs almost exactly that amount (including shipping)! Even stranger is how the entire block is worth 350 points and you can get a complete small block for about $5 per point or a 1968 through 1974 big block for about $10 per point.
It's all about supply and demand. Most uneducated buyers believe that NCRS Top Flight means premium value for a car even if they have no idea what it takes to get a Top Flight. There are certain bets I am willing to take: 1)just like the 1980's, the collector car market will drop by 1/3 to 1/2 once the stock market comes around 2)unless you know what you're buying, there will always be someone ready to rip you off 3) $5 or $10 per point is a bargain for those last points needed to get a top flight. Make the stamp pad only worth 15 points total and the restampers will find a better way to get max points for their money.
Mark- Top
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Re: engine broaching marks
Jack, thank you, I have always wondered why broach marks were not the same. I have observed many pads over the years and in no way claim to be an expert but have often wondered why the broach marks were more pronounced on certain engines than others.- Top
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