What has been the members experience when trying to obtain top flight or Duntov when the car has been restored with the correct color but sprayed urethane vs laquer. Does the loss of 80 points leave you too little room to obtain the flight award. Any comment or point of view would be appreciated, I really want to lay down a modern urethane system.
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Dino Lanno -
Re: Laquer vs Urethane
Dino,
Without opening a can of worms, I will try to answer your post. 80 point loss is almost 2% if it is a driver you can earn that percentage back by driving 200 miles to the meet. Driving percentage does not count toward the Duntov award. The key to your answer however is find a shop that can make urethane look like lacquer. It can be done and our manuals say the paint must appear to be lacquer. You will have a hard time getting a two stage urethane to look like lacquer because of the required clear top coat. single stage urethane can be made to look like lacquer. there are several Duntov award Corvettes with urethane paint. I will guarantee you however those paint jobs look like lacquer. -
Re: Laquer vs Urethane
there are a few cars that have made it with urethane but i bet most of them are solid colors.the metalic is seldom the correct size and the clear always gives a slight pearl effect. keep in mind the "as sprayed orange peel" is totally different.and if color sanded to much that can also be a deduct.as roy said if you go single stage it is harder to tell. and dont forget many judges will ask the owner to "pull color". ive been a painter for 31 years and a exterior judge for a while. i can ALMOST always tell. there have been a few that are tough. if in doubt i always give the owner the points. the choice is yours.Comment
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Re: Laquer vs Urethane
Roy: Very good answer to long asked question. I hope members read and understand what you are saying. Using Urethane in not "original" but as the book says "Appears to to be Laquer".Comment
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Re: Laquer vs Urethane
On the same subject, I'm interested in members' experiences as to the durability of laquer. I'm restoring a 67 coupe (sunfire yellow)and purchased the laquer paint about a year ago (almost ready to spray). The car will be shown on occasion and driven 500-1000 miles per year. Will the laquer hold up?, several painters told me it will crack in no time at all and I'm wasting my time with it. I realize that the modern paints are more durable but what's the grass roots story from fellow restorers that have used laquer?? Thanks, BillComment
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Re: Laquer vs Urethane
Bill, Lets start by saying I am no painter or body man, but in 1982 my 1966 coupe was painted using laquer paint. The paint never was perfect, and I lose a few points when it is judged these days. This car is garaged when not being driven, (3 to 6K a year) and for the last seven years has lived at an altitude at 5000' so UV is something I need to be concerned with. Yet with it's age and UV exposure the paint still looks good to my eye. I suspect good prep and good care have contributed to my paint life, let's see what others have to say. Good luck, BillComment
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Re: Laquer vs Urethane
I have a rally red 67 roadster with six year old laquer paint. I live in Los Angeles, CA, where we deal with many elements hard on a paint job, like smog. (...and some living elements as well) I drive the car almost every sunny weekend. I also leave it in the direct sun, at the golf club, all day long. With the exception of a few rock chips, the paint looks new. I keep it waxed and periodically use a ultra-fine polishing compound prior to waxing.
The main drawback to working with nitracellulose (laquer) is it dries by solvant evaporation not chemical reaction. To get a smooth glossy finish and avoid "orange peel", laquer must be sprayed in a very thin viscosity. It runs easily and body shops don't like to work with it. The thin viscosity also shows every imperfection in the glass as it dries and tightens. But Corvette bodies are not perfect. That is part of the charm.
Urethane paints may be more durable and show less imperfection but they still chip and fade. Clear coats don't buff well, laquer does. If you are serious about NCRS, Top Flight, Duntov, and Bloomington, don't give up the 80 points!!!Comment
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Re: Laquer vs Urethane
I am in a pickle right now, My brother's best friend painted my black 68, Please no heckling right now I'm sick about the car, it has sat for 6 months, that's why I have been void of the board. But, I got the car home, Long story, and it is going back. The car has shown hairline cracks in the paint near several edges, I know why, How do you fix it? I heard grind them out, glass them in. Please help, and was there clear coat over the lacquer?? or not?? jcComment
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Re: Laquer vs Urethane
Painters out this way who specialize in 'nose bleed' concours and street radical jobs (E.g. +15K for a paint job) say lacquer can be made durable as all get out. Problems (challenges?) lie in proper surface preparation and underlying surface rigidity.
Where they're coming from is modern primer/sealer components typically do NOT dry full/hard. This gives them the 'edge' in being able to flow under stress and reject spider webbing effects. Unfortunately, the older lacquer surface paints did not 'skin' and exhibit 'flow' characteristics. So, if one mixes new technology for sealer/primer with old technology for final color, you get a job that's 'hair trigger' oriented to crack.
Next, the panels themselves are plastic, meaning they are prone to plastic deformation under strain. The top dogs I talked to go to ridiculous extremes when the target is a 'plastic' Corvette. They do things like rip out the factory original panel bonds and reinforcements, and re-lay 'em down fresh, new, hard to boost the structural rigidity of the body without leaving evidence of non-original construction techniques.
Cars done this way are a joy to behold and exhibit durability beyond your wildest belief (and your wallet). So, it's not just a final paint issue -- it's a system approach concept. And in many cases you get what you pay for which adds to the self fulfilling prophesy of lacquer not having the durability of today's more modern formulas. Gotta take into consideration the paint, the prep AND the marriage of both.Comment
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Re: Laquer vs Urethane
Bill, Today's laquers don't have the lead contact that old time paints did. Therefore the paints don't have the durability ar gloss retention that they once had. My 67 coupe was painted by me in 1995 and is used 3 to 5 k miles per year. However it is in a heated garage year round. I find that I have to rebuff and polish once a year to retain a proper gloss. This has since taken away all orange peel effect. I have also painted friends cars (single stage) both solid and metallics with urethane paint (Dupont) and seen them fly through flight judging no problem. I did paint my own car laquer but still don't agree with the judging criteria in reguards to this. Why continue to put 10 cent paint on $50k cars. (STUPID)
Good Luck with your decision and remember, It's your car and your investment. Protect it!Comment
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Re: Laquer vs Urethane
laquer is alot like chrome plating it can only be as good as whats under it ,the trick to a long lasting laquer job is to have the body as smooth [400 grit] as possable and use the least amount of meterial as you can get by with.dried laquer does not flex. the thicker it is the faster it cracks. i painted my maroon 62 in 1975 with clear and it is just starting to crack.my nassau blue 66 [with clear] in 78 [has new owner] and it still looks great and is driven every day.ive been a painter for 31 years. most painters do not want to spend enough time on the body .they want the primer to do the work. for a long lasting laquer job remember LESS IS BEST. true the laquer made today is not as good as 20 years ago.but urethane has a few problems to.Comment
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Re: Laquer vs Urethane
JC,
About the cracks in the paint Jeff, maybe you could explain more how you know why. As far as the clear coat, this is a good thread to read through and decide what you want. If it's for purist / originality, then no clear coat. TBarr #24014Comment
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