Trying to start after rebuild

[Steve D.]

You guys have heard it all; so here's some more.
'63, SB, NOM, Holley 4160, body is still off. I'm the culprit that rebuilt the engine. Engine turns over ok, but no startee. Getting spark. I pulled a couple of plugs, grounded, turned engine over, and got spark. Is this a sufficient check or is spark still a possible problem? Fuel is getting to carburetor; bowls full, accelerator pump delivers "shot" as expected. Carburetor just received new kit. Distributor is in place correctly(?); checked w/ piston stop when assembled (not turned over before distributor installation) and checked subsequently while troubleshooting when trying to start. (I realize this could still be the problem, but I've done all I know to do at this point). The engine turns over with no real hint of starting, just a flump or two. Here's an observation from one attempt that might be a clue; I got a flash at the point where the exhaust header (first section of pipe connected to exhaust manifold)connects at mid frame to the exhaust pipe. (I just have the pipes slipped together and resting in the hanger, not clamped) This apparently means thatI got a charge thru the exhaust valve.
Does this make any sense to anybody?

Steve

[Mark F.]

Re: Trying to start after rebuild

Sounds like the distributor is 180 degrees out. Make sure your rotor is pointed to number one plug and that both valves are closed at top dead center on that cylinder. I rebuilt a TR6 engine this last year and tried to start it and had the same thing happen. Yep, I was 180 degrees out. Forgot to check everything prior to starting. Just my guess!

Mark

[Tracy C.]

Re: Trying to start after rebuild

Steve,

You have spark and gas....it's gotta be timing. Are you sure that when #1 piston is TDC on the compression stroke (following intake valve movement) that the rotor bug is pointed at #1 on your distributor cap?

You can be out several degrees and get more action than you describe.

Certainly don't want to insult you with this question but are you also sure you had the mark on cam and crank gears properly lined up when you installed the timing chain?

tc

[Michael H.]

Re: Trying to start after rebuild

Steve,

You mentioned that you had the distributor index set using a stop method on #1 cyl to establish TDC but I have to wonder if you actually have this correct. How did you establish that this was TDC "firing" phaze and not TDC for the overlap phaze? Because you get two choices on this, you must first make sure that it is indeed #1 TDC with both valves fully closed, not partially open as in the overlap cycle.

There are two ways to make sure that you are using the correct phaze. One, remove the number one spark plug and put your thumb in the plug hole while rotating the engine. As soon as you feel the rush of air escaping, you will be on the compression stroke and a few more degrees of rotation from there should be #1 firing position. The distributor rotor should now point almost directly at the #1 terminal in the dist cap.

Another more involved method would be to remove the LH rocker arm cover and watch the #1 cyl rocker arms as you rotate the engine. In the #1 firing position, both valves should be in their fully closed position. If they're both partialy open, that would mean you are in the #1 "overlap" position, exactly 180 deg out of phaze.

If you have all of the other necessary ingredients like fuel, ignition, compression etc., the engine should at least make some attempt to run. Hope this helps,

Michael

[Duke W.]

Re: Trying to start after rebuild

Back to basics:

1.. Proper dist. installation

2. Proper spark plug wire indexing

3. Timing

Proper distributor installation and wire indexing have been extensively explained and discussed. Archives!

You should be able to check timing at cranking speed with a timing light. If it's not in the ballpark go back to steps 1 and 2.
Duke

[Steve D.]

Re: Trying to start after rebuild

Mark

That's possible, but I pulled # 1 plug, stuck a ball of cotton in the hole, bumped the starter , when the cotton blew out I checked the position of the rotor and it was at #1 position.

Steve

[Steve D.]

Re: Trying to start after rebuild

Tracy

I'm not insulted by any reply on this board. Besides, you have helped me with too many other things. I am very confident that I got the spots on the gears lined up. ( But Iguess that still doesn't mean that I gotit right)

Steve

[Steve D.]

Re: Trying to start after rebuild

Michael

Thanks. I pulled # 1 plug, stuck a ball of cotton in the hole, bumped the starter , when the cotton blew out I checked the position of the rotor and it was at #1 position. It sure sounds like timing, so I'm being patient and waiting until the tumblers fall into place.

Steve

[Steve D.]

Re: Trying to start after rebuild

Duke

I went to the archives before posting.

I have the timing light hooked up. I'll try that while cranking. Thanks.

Steve

[Tracy C.]

Re: Trying to start after rebuild

If the Crank gear was at exactly @ 12:00 and the Cam gear was exactly @ 6:00 then you got it right. There are some tuner tricks to index the cam beyond this basic installation, but I'm not smart enough to elaborate on them.

In reference to your other post, merely bumping the starter until "a cotton ball blows out" may not be precise enough to ensure the rotor bug is where it needs to be.

Pull the coil wire and roll the engine over by hand until you know beyond a shadow of a doubt you are at top dead center on the #1 cylinder compression stroke. Then recheck the rotor.

You may just be off a tooth or two with the distributor.

[Michael H.]

Re: Trying to start after rebuild

Steve,

I agree with Tracy. I have to wonder if the cotton is being blown out on the exhaust stroke instead of the comp stroke. Even with the exhaust valve open, there may be enough pressure to blow out a small wad of cotton. Try his "thumb method" and see what happens.

[Steve D.]

Update

I rotated the distributor 180 degrees. At least this provoked a response, even if it was a backfire. I rechecked the plug wire sequence; it's ok. So, I guess I'll get out my piston stop and crank nut and check TDC manually; AGAIN. I'm tempted to quote Vinnie Barbarino's "I'm so confused!", but I won't, because that might sound a tad defeatist. Besides, this is part of the hunt. Thanks everybody.

Steve

[mike cobine]

It will take less time to remove

four valve cover bolts and check than all this guess work with the cotton ball. You're lucky you haven't sucked it in.

Just roll the engine to TDC on the timing mark, pull the driver's side valve cover, check the front two valves are open (rockers level and a little loose), and the rotor pointing at plug wire #1.

3 minutes tops.

You spent more time here asking questions. Sounds rough, but it is true.

Now if you had a late '70s with the valve cover covered by a dozen hoses and such, yeah, I'd be hesitant, but a bare engine on a frame?

[mike cobine]

Re: Update

Look at the front of the balancer and check the keyway in the crank snout lines up with the TDC line on the outer ring. You will have the pull the crank bolt and washer if you have one.

[William C.]

Re: It will take less time to remove

you did not mention what cam you have, but I had a friend with a hydraulic lifter engine once that rebuilt an engine and adjusted the valves so tight he had them all open and the engine would not start. Not a likely problem, but maybe???