Perplexing Solid Axle/1960 Questions. Help!

[Bob B.]

[Roy B.]

Re: Perplexing Solid Axle/1960 Questions. Help!

Your questioning the JM?? How many reissues have been sold?? How many more will be rewritten?? It will never end! If your going for flight , make all the changes to conform , but don't throw any parts you think are original away and keep pic. of the way it was so that you can change back later.
This has been how the old timers play the game , I and many others have been personally restoring our Corvettes before NCRS and the JM and many correct Corvettes have never seen NCRS judging.
NCRS means many things to many people and not to many others.So you decide!

[Richard B.]

Re: Perplexing Solid Axle/1960 Questions. Help!

Bob,

What a GREAT post. You have asked some intelligent questions in a professional and courteous manner.

I have sent you an email as a follow up.

Richard Brodeur
NCRS#4779

[Bob B.]

Re: Perplexing Solid Axle/1960 Questions. Help!

Some explanation of where I'm coming from. I have Ph.D. in geology, so I tend toward research, which is one of the reasons I am having fun restoring my car. I enjoy looking for each and every new scrap of information that adds to the complete picture (I get excited about rocks. How can you not expect me to get excited about Corvettes!). I fully understand that if judges do not have personal knowledge of particular aspects of a car they must rely on the manual for what is "typical." I also undestand that the manual is the product of volunteer effort and, given that, it is exceptionally good -- the result of people who are doing it just for the propagation and enjoyment of the hobby!

That being said, my research orientation keeps nagging at me. I am happy that there are those who "play the game" by making cookie-cutter cars for judging and then putting them back the way they should be later. But I am also concerned that others are just tossing pieces that are original simply because the manual says something else. With the former, only the individual owner knows the particular details of originality, and with the latter, no one does! Neither approach helps anybody else to properly restore their car. Some, of course, buy a car, take it to a restoration shop, and leave it with the instructions to make it Top Flight. The shop people may know details no one else does on originality, but they are bound to restore by the JM.

I see NCRS as not just a means to restore Corvettes to a single standard, but as an avenue by which we all share what we learn during the restoration process so that our total databse of Corvette knowledge continues to increase and increase until all old Corvettes have been found and have been either Bow Tied or restored. In order to make sure this happens, it is incumbent on each of us, whether individual restorers or restoration business owners, to make information we learn during restoration known to the team leader for our particular years so that it may be incorporated into future revisions of the manual.

I also realize that the manual can't practically be a thousand pages and I am not advocating that. But, for example, adding "or dip-painted black" to the description of the fuel pump base plate doesn't require much ink or space, but it certainly adds a significant nugget of data to our total knowledge base. No matter how modified they are, every car still retains many original features, some of which may not be "typical." With each restoration, we can either document and share this information with other NCRS members or lose it forever. This is the choice as I (however bright-eyed, bushy-tailed, and starry-eyed as I may be) see it. ;-) Am I banging my head against a wall? Perhaps. But it won't be the first time.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Perplexing Solid Axle/1960 Questions. Help!

Bob,

Restore the car as you find it. After going around the same car with one of your future judges (assuming you take it to be judged) he commented that ALL judges for the 1960 model year should spend time with that car and ones like it. He noted how it did in fact go against some things in the JG, but that the JG was not correct.

I hope that gives you some insight into how I would do it.

Patrick

[Loren L.]

Taking a shot at some of the questions

Bob, under the category "For What it's Worth":1) The # cited is not a part number for either the strap or the antenna assy; 2) be careful of the picture on page 330 because it is NOT a GM photo - it is a "restored" car;3) I wonder if it's possible that ONLY base motor were shipped with the distributor installed and it was done before engine paint - another possibility is the engine painter did not get the required coverage and someone at St Louis "touched up"; 4) I agree with wire: 5) the AIM calls out 3737028 AND 3749690 as "optional" - appears to be a primary tube but if they run out, use the other - the JM should reflect this; 6) touchup??; 7, 8 & 10) the picture on page 223 is of Chevrolet's "photo car", #2269 built on 1/7/60 and the photos were taken o/a 1/15/60 - backing plates are dark, tie rods are bare AT LEAST ON THE BOTTOM (frt susp assy did get "blacked out" before installation) and the driveshaft is painted; 11) I would offer the comment that the AIM does not show grease inserts on the propeller shaft but DOES show them on the tie rod ends (but the owner's manual calls them out for lubrication every 1000 miles?); 12) #2272 is BLACK; 13) some sort of paint; 14) ?????; 15) I see no limits on this option - surely a Phx buyer might want one; 16) unbuffed gloss and Good Luck.

[Rob M.]

Re: Perplexing Solid Axle/1960 Questions. Help!

Bob,

Excellent response and thank you for asking these questions since they trigger us, other 58-60 owners to check these things out (or refresh our memories about the time we did our resto and encounter these deviations).

greetings,
Rob.
Late 59 Crown Sapphire/Turquoise

[mike cobine]

These questions go back a LONG time

The answer is simple - do what you feel is right or follow the JG to pass the judging.

My personal thoughts are that much of the Corvette restoration hobby has given up long ago to find what really happened and instead goes with the "typical factory production". A footnote in a JG doesn't increase your selling price. Today seems mostly driven by obtaining the Top Flight or Bloomington Gold award so the price of the car goes up.

Most tend to forget this was an eight-hour-a-day job that a bunch of guys punched a clock and tried to never let the line stop if possible, otherwise it could upset bonuses or overtime. If a "wrong" part would work and keep the line running, and not get caught/noticed by an inspector, then use it. Lots of things went on, especially at night, that many insist never happened. This was a PRODUCTION shop, not an art gallery.

And far too many cars are restored to the "rules" only to find out years later, the "rules" were not right.

[Roy B.]

Re: These questions go back a LONG time

Here! Here! Nice to see some one having the b*lls to express it besides me ,which I get e-mail from die hard's letting me know or thinking I don't care about NCRS (which I do) If others did not express the same concern NCRS wouldn't need to ever reprint the JM over and over. It's exasperating to be different then the norm, asking questions as to why the JM has to be the bible.Some body must be asking and arguing or you would never have reprints & reissues.
More Corvettes every year are becoming more a like ( you've seen one you've seen them all ) only a color makes them different.
Yes I know what the response will be,been there heard that being member #182
I always felt that a consensus -a mail out to members having that same year Corvette pertaining say to a particular part should be considered as a mean to know what may be right or other wise. But that's me!
Having started a club and a National club I've come to realize if your not looking to be some one ,people ether like you, put up with you or hate you,ant it sweet??

[mike cobine]

Re: These questions go back a LONG time

Roy,

My initial contact with NCRS in the late 70s was one that didn't work well, basically telling me my newer cars weren't welcomed. That I always thought was a dumb attitude, having to have a '62 or older to join, if the purpose was to restore and preserve old Corvettes. Also, why pass up on cars until they were so old, the potential of them being original was gone? So what I know mostly of that time is from those in the local clubs who were in NCRS.

Basically, I understood that the guides were just that, guides. They were trying to find information to find out how Corvettes were made and document the different things that happened. Most judging was more research that judgemental.

In fact, when I did join in '89, some of that seemed to still have a place, discovering the differences that occurred from what they assumed occurred.

But the impression over the last many years is that while the JG does change occasionally, it is "the rules" and any deviation is penalized. If you have something that is different, then YOU have to come up with lots of proof that it was produced differently, something very few people have any means of doing. Finding two or three cars the same isn't proof. Maybe if your name is John Hinckley or Art Armstrong, you can find that proof, but I bet 90% couldn't get an appointment inside Chevrolet to even ask, let alone get information.

Now on NCRS' defense, I understand that to some extent. 35 years ago, there were many more original unmolested cars than today, so the likelihood that the deviation was factory and not Bubba was better. Today, deviations are more likely incorrect previous old restorations, shortcuts in its life, the only part available, and of course, the dealer/restorer who intentionally uses something wrong and tries to bluff it as correct by excuse of it being a deviation.

Still, there are unmolested cars that show up. People who were 30 in 1960 are 75 today, and due to death or facing reality they will never restore that old Corvette they put in storage 35 years ago, finally set them loose on the world to be rediscovered.

And those unmolested stored cars need to be viewed very carefully, because there are very few original cars out there anymore, and they should not be judged as to right and wrong, but used to document every item that can be found. If the car was repainted, that doesn't affect how original the chassis is and the information we could obtain. If the engine was changed, the rest could be still very original. Yet I noticed that the emphasis for original cars is Bow Tie and that if you are not right in all four categories, then why bother to waste your time.

I remember when Bow Tie started, I could swear its intent was to collect information from unrestored cars. But opinions I hear today about Bow Tie is that it seems to be just an exclusive judging class now instead. There are frequently comments about how it is tougher than BG Survivor(R) and therefore more valuable.

Huh? If it is about gathering uncontaminated data, then why is it "tougher to get". Is Bow Tie truly about learning from original cars, or just a judging class for unrestored cars?

These cars hold a wealth of information, and shouldn't be chased away. We can find several places on this board where people are told to restore it in a certain way to comply with the rules if they want a good score. That isn't about learning, that is about competing.

It shouldn't be "Bow Tie award, where this car scored original in 80% of the areas" but rather "A Bow Tie car, whose original sections are helping us learn more about original Corvette production."

Very few full dinosaur skeltons have been found intact. Usually, they find a leg bone in this place, a country away they find a thigh. But by combining all the information found in small parts together, they can deduct the whole. They don't throw out the little bits.

But for some reason, the attitude with Corvettes is that the information is only worthwhile if it is whole. Partial information is worthless.

[Roy B.]

Re: These questions go back a LONG time

OK mike! you and I seem to think alike and are few people to be found any more , remember tho many may not say out loud , but the big picture to day is getting THAT award, not standing OUT with opinions or conjecture to the JM.
You play or go away. NCRS is a great organization which I like and support, but it's not the only game in town. It's one place to get pedigreed for some owners and some buyers have a need for it.And it's said that only about %10 of all Corvettes are NCRS members. So I see many Corvettes not NCRS and are still original real Corvettes left.
So bottom line is , no one is right or wrong, If a person is happy with what they have then the game is a game.

[Steve Pettit]

Re: These questions go back a LONG time

Mike, that is an excellent and lucid essay. You are right on the money. I've got a 66 390 hp that I have known since it was new. It is not untouched, and I've even done a few things to it that I wish that I had not done, but by and large it is a pretty original known big block. I would be very reluctant to go get it "judged" knowing that the things that have changed would be the focal point rather than the original pieces. I have 0 interest in top-flight or concours type shows for my car, I love to see other cars that are in that category, have neither the time, expertise or money to take old red down that road. I would, if I could, be glad to show it somewhere if it could be of some use in establishing the patterns that these cars rolled off the floor exhibiting.

One other thing, I worked for Fisher Body in the early 70's and the comments about keeping the line running and using whatever was at hand and would work are right on point, in fact maybe a little too weak, if the situation was desperate enough, the line forman would use whatever was on hand whether it would work or not, and let inspection find it if they could.

Steve

[John H.]

Re: These questions go back a LONG time

Roy, "no good deed goes unpunished"