C2 67 Paint

[Stephen L.]

I have a '67 coupe big block that is Marina Blue with a black hood stripe.
I attended a NCRS Chapter meet last weekend and the car was judged.

I received a total deduct on the Paint 85 points. 45 points for originality and 40 points for condition.

The paint is correct color but is Base/Clearcoat. I can understand the 45 points for "material not consistent with factory application but I don't understand the condition deduct. The car has no dings etc. The paint job is over restored (nice shine and smooth) but it doesn't have pinstriping flames etc.

Was I judged correctly with a total deduct for paint condition?

[Mike M.]

Re: C2 67 Paint

According to your account, your scoring was correctly applied as stated in the Corvette Judging Reference Manual, Sec. 3, No. 11. To paraphrase; in order for an item or area to be scored on condition, it must first receive a minimum of 10% of the assigned originality points, or that item or area shall not be judged on condition and will be scored as a full deduction. If your paint at a future meet would earn 10% or higher, from your description, you would then probably receive the 40 condition points. With the judging changes recently implemented regarding paint, do your research, this may be posible.
For anyone having their car judged, the judges are responsible to explain all deductions during the review of the judging sheet with the owner.
H. a. N. D.

[don 42616]

Re: C2 67 Paint

Steve, I also have a Blue 67BB that is going to a meet in so. Ca. 3 weeks. I have been working off & ON FOR A MONTH fine sanding & steel wool the inside of door jambs & inside hood/fender areas to dull any shine. You might consider this if you want to have your car rejudged. Don

[Stephen L.]

Re: C2 67 Paint

Once it was determined that I had a base/clearcoat paint (the judge asked and I told him) that seemed to be the end of it. No points awarded for condtion.

The door jambs got a deduct at a different judged item for being "too glossy"
So if the judge who does your car uses the same logic, then you'll also receive full deduction if you have a base/clearcoat paint.

[don 42616]

Re: C2 67 Paint

The last meet I attended the judges said that if the paint APPEARED to be as GM intended that there will be no deducts.

[don 42616]

The rational is that laquer in not readily availab *NM*

[Joe R.]

Re: C2 67 Paint

Hi Steve:

The judging guidelines for paint were revised about a year ago in an effort to bring more consistency to the process. I'm not sure the revised guidelines have really solved the problem, but I suggest you get a copy of the seventh edition of the Judging Reference Manual and study the section on standard deductions for paint.

You will find that if "the appearance is consistent with factory application methods," a BC/CC paint job will be subject to only a 50% originality deduction (22 points), leaving you open to get full credit on condition. However, if "the appearance is not consistent with factory application methods," you will get a full deduction for originality, which forces a full deduction on condition as well (85 points total). That's a big difference, all dependent on what "appearance consistent with factory application methods" actually means.

From informal discussions with various NCRS judges, it is my impression that the main difference they are looking for is the degree of gloss in painted areas that the factory did not buff out, such as door jambs, the underside of the deck lid on convertibles, and various other surfaces. The reason is that the original lacquer had a flat finish until it was buffed out, so only the buffed areas were glossy. With enamel, urethane, or BC/CC, everything ends up glossy.

So, for at least some judges, if you have made the effort to dull down the areas that would have been dull from the factory, you get only the 50% originality deduction even though they know that the paint is not lacquer. On the other hand, if you have not made this effort, you get the full 85 point deduction.

When I bought my car it had nice paint that was glossy everywhere (enamel or urethane, I'm not sure which). I dulled down the door jambs with a combination of steel wool and lacquer thinner. I dulled down the underside of the deck lid with a simple coat of Krylon clear satin (which I now prefer over the steel wool and lacquer thinner method). My car was judged at a chapter meet last weekend, and I got only the 50% originality deduction, although the judges pointed out some other small areas that should have been dulled down as well.

I do not know if the interpretation I have described is universally accepted by all judges, but I know it is the interpretation used by at least some judges. It might be helpful if the NCRS could provide a more specific description of what they mean by the phrase "consistent with factory application methods."

[Stephen L.]

Re: C2 67 Paint

Thanks for your insight. I'm not quite sure that I want to "dull down" and then find it was fruitless..... Maybe the judging chair should clarify this item so that there is consistency.
In my case that didn't appear to be an option; however, I really didn't discuss the problem with the judge to see, as I thought that I'd need to take a full originality deduct for the BC/CC

[mike cobine]

How "dull" is "dull"?

The reason I ask is my '68 with original paint in the door jams is shiny. Not as shiny as the hood or fenders, but much more than the inside door panels. The door panels would be hidden by the interior door panels so who cared if it sprayed on dry. But the door jams were very visible and has a decent shine.

My '63 with the original paint also has a shine, but not as much as the '68. It is not nearly as deep as the fenders, roof, or deck. Basically, it is similar to being sanded with 220-400 and then buffed. You can see a reflection although there is some dullness.

Both cars are red.

A 'silver '69 I looked at in April had original paint under the deck lid and in the door jams. They were dull, very dull. But then, silver was dull.

[Dick W.]

Re: C2 67 Paint

Steve, the rule has been, at least since that I have been in NCRS, that you must receive at least 10% originality points before the condition can be judged. Less than 10% you receive a total deduct on condition.

[Ian S.]

Re: How "dull" is "dull"?

That is the same question I have after seeing a 66 judged a few weeks ago. The judge said the jams were not dull enough and then pointed out an area that he thought would be correct and it was very flat.

This made me think because I am going to paint my car BC/CC and was going to match the jams to the few areas on my car that are still original and untouched. The deck lid underneath is what I would call semi gloss and the paint under the door sills is also original and the same level of gloss. This original paint from the factory would be way too glossy if I were to follow what this judge said was correct.

My car is Tuxedo Black.

[Michael H.]

Re: How "dull" is "dull"?

Ian,

I feel that the judge has it a bit wrong. The paint in the door jambs was definitely not anywhere near flat. In fact, some areas were actually quite glossy. The original unrestored jambs on my 66 are almost as glossy in many areas as the paint on the outer surface of the body. The factory paint went through a "reflow oven" which made the top surface level a bit and gloss over. It didn't look like BB/CC but it difinitely wasn't flat either.

[Stephen L.]

Re: C2 67 Paint

Dick, I went back and reviewed the write-up by Roy Sinor on the subject. You are correct.... I guess my first time thru that rule I thought the condition didn't hinge on the originality.

Now I'm wondering how these cars are being judged with clearcoat (lacquer or otherwise) and getting points because clear just wasn't an option from GM during C2 days.

I'd like to recoup some of the points in this area at my next meet but there appears to be inconsistencies in how this whole area is handled.

By the way, I enjoyed the meet in Banner Elk. Got some good feedback from everyone andI'm in the process of fixing those areas (nothing major..... and a couple of dumb mistakes on my part)

[mike cobine]

Re: How "dull" is "dull"?

I'll bet that this "judgement call" in the guide is based on a small sample that did have dull paint, but originals were not "dull" in that area. They just didn't shine like the hood. Some colors are dull while others are not.

Now the under deck area is dull, they don't look like anyone sanded in there, but several I've seen looked like they had been hit with a buffer, just not well. After all, what kind of quality would it have been to send a NEW CORVETTE (Chevy's highest priced car) out with paint that was dull and felt like sand?

[mike cobine]

Re: C2 67 Paint

Consistency?

In paint, if you have a coating that can be determined is non-original, you lose it all.

In the engine, you lose a deduction. Lack of the correct VIN is only a deduction.

In paint, if you take a non-original material and make it look very much like original, it passes.

In the engine, if you take a non-original block and make it look very much like the original (restamping or Elmer's Glue and sand casting numbers), you have a counterfeit and lose it all.

Don't look for consistency, just read the rules and follow them for each section. Like in all competitive activities, you should always get the rulebook before you ever start to prepare.