Are '67 docs pointless?

[John H.]

Re: Are '67 docs pointless?

Mark -

Across the complete spectrum of the Chevrolet/Corvette hobby, there are AT LEAST six different "entrepreneurs" making fake P-O-P's.

[Rick S.]

Re: Are '67 docs pointless?

John,
Is there some way the average guy can detect a fake POP? Or is it like the trim tag where a Scopebuster is used?
Rick

[Gary #41345]

Re: Are '67 docs pointless?

Mike, If you were commissioned to develope a system of original vs restoration for judging and value how would you begin? Makes perfect sense to me that there should be at least 2 classes and possibly more with regard to "Original" and "Restored" with various tiers under each with respect to their levels of originality and restoration. Let's face it restored Corvettes are the wave of the future as their numbers will always exceed the true originals...not to take anything away from the true originals they are in a class of their own..and rightfully so. The restored market is the largest share of ownership today making up maybe 70% if not more of the owners cars out there.

Regards Gary

[Gary #41345]

Re: Are '67 docs pointless?

Mike, If you were commissioned to develope a system of original vs restoration for judging and value how would you begin? Makes perfect sense to me that there should be at least 2 classes and possibly more with regard to "Original" and "Restored" with various tiers under each with respect to their levels of originality and restoration. Let's face it restored Corvettes are the wave of the future as their numbers will always exceed the true originals...not to take anything away from the true originals they are in a class of their own..and rightfully so. The restored market is the largest share of ownership today making up maybe 70% if not more of the owners cars out there.

[mike cobine]

Re: Are '67 docs pointless?

I think the NCRS system is a pretty good one. Each car competes only against itself. So an unrestored and a restored car compete not against each other, but against the standard.


I think that in theory this works very well. I think in practice, the more experience a judge has, the better this works. Human nature what it is, sometimes people can be swayed by "pretty". Also, you look at an item and think "is this 8 out of 10 or 9 out of 10?" Then you remember another that you gave 8 of 10 to and think, "this one is better/worse" and assign points accordingly rather than strictly based on this car alone. I'm sure many will disagree.


An unrestored car is not necessarily going to be better just because it is original, as its condition may be far removed from how it left the factory. Paint faded, carpet faded, oil-soaked engine, etc. This is why there are the Bow Tie and Survivor classes in NCRS and NCCB.


I think that all items should be judged by the quality of the restoration, and not be condemned instantly because they are unoriginal. If you go to https://www.ncrs.org/awards.html and look at restore, the examples are all of non-original items yet they are restoring.


A few years ago, Roy Sinor defined restamping a small block to match the original small block as restoring. He defined stamping a big block to make a small block car appear to be a big block car as counterfeiting. The first part is now removed, however, because it was there for some time, I think the genie is out of the bottle and we have to live with it. And only a fool would think there are no restamped engines out there with awards.


As such, I think we should only judge the stamp pad as how well done it is, not an instant total deduct if something is wrong. Currently, the engine block is checked for originality only in

A. casting number and case configuration - 350 pt
B. casting date - 175 pt
C. Assembly stamping - 25 pt
D. VIN Derivative - 25 pt
E. Stamp pad surface finish - 38 pt

Since we allowed stamping for a time, do you punish those for following the rules? I think that C, D, and E should have Condition points.


This way someone who restores a block to match the car can still acheive the goal of "To renew; to put back into existence or bring back to a former or original state" as stated by NCRS without losing all points because they simply were not good enough to fool the judges. This is Top Flight, not Bow Tie. This is about restoring, not about a car that survived unscathed.


This might also put to rest the insanity on the original vs. NOM problem. You could run something like this:

Original Condition
A. casting number and case configuration - 350 pt -
B. casting date - 175 pt -
C. Assembly stamping - 25 pt or 25 pt
D. VIN Derivative - 25 pt or 25 pt
E. Stamp pad surface finish - 38 pt or 38 pt

where you get either the originality points on each part of the pad or you get condition points. But then, you would know the engine was original or NOM immediately from the points.


No other place do you have to fool the judges. You don't have to fool them with new lacquer paint (45 pt & 40 pt). You don't have to fool them with new seat covers (20 pt & 20pt ).


Interesting is that Body Color only has Originality Points. Yet when was the last time you saw several red '63 coupes together that were the exact same shade of red?

[John H.]

Re: Are '67 docs pointless?

Yes, there are detectable differences; I believe another volume of the Authentication Library will cover POP's.