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ncrs judging criteria carl rose hi guys i am posting this asking for an explanation i am not posting this to try and stir up dissent name calling etc i recieved the most recent issue of the restorer friday there was an editorial on numbers matching regarding restamps vs trim tag replacement apparently restamping is acceptable but changing a trim tag is not and further penalty is assessed if restamping is done with dishonorable intent i e perhaps if the owner does not immediately confess can someone please clarify the difference in these two situations for me thanks carl
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Re: NCRS Judging Criteria
re ncrs judging criteria vinnie peters carl if you were an ncrs member for the past year i suggest you read the article in the spring issue of the restorer by roy sinor titled ncrs judging owners advisory on page please try to understand the difference between the definition of counterfeit vs restoration as described in the article if you read and comprehend this it will all fall into place if you don't have access to that copy of the restorer let me know and i'll email you a copy of the article if you have any other questions on the subject please email me direct hope this helped regards vinnie peters
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Re: NCRS Judging Criteria
re ncrs judging criteria jack humphrey adding to vinnie peters and roy sinor comments let's take examples consider you have the factory original motor for your corvette and in the restoration process need to rebuild it odds are good that to achieve a high quality durable engine rebuild you might have to true the cylinder case's upper surfaces to achieve proper flatness this is called decking the lid in the process your factory original stamps and broach marks become history putting them back with correct due diligence to font style and font placement is a form of restoration i've seen a couple of original motored cars show up on the judging field where heroic efforts were made to true the cylinder deck without removing factory original stampings and the car puked oil from the front because the head gaskets could not absorb flatness irregularities would you want to own drive this kind of restoration next there's the issue of a corvette with its factory original motor missing the restorer finds a correct replacement cylinder case with proper casting numbers and casting dates he she decks the lid and stamps the information necessary to correspond to the car's original engine config here the engine has been restored but it's not the factory original motor it might have been everything else is right the cylinder case's only fraud is it spent its prior life in a chevy passenger car truck last a cylinder case is decked and the owner has it stamped to reflect a different from factory original configuration more hp puts a bb into a car that was originally a sb here intentional differences are being introduced with the intent to deceive so there's a range to consider in example one the owner would should say the car has the factory original motor but it's been restored in the second example the owner would should say the car does not have the factory original motor it's a numbers matching restoration in the third case the owner might be caught and if so penalized heavily note other corvette factory concourse circuits e g bloomington take a pencil scotch tape lift of the motor's stamp pad and shuttle it off to an independent stamp judge he she does not see the car simply the impression of the engine's stamp pad a determination as to whether or not the marks compare favorably to known then current workmanship is rendered in a pass fail situation a fail determination renders the car disqualified for gold certification regardless of the balance of the car's judging outcome at ncrs stamp pad authenticity is determined on the field by the mech judging team considering what they see in total partial credit is given to engines that have been replaced it's still possible for a corvette to earn a top flight award even with a blank unstamped pad but if the owner attempts to restamp a motor and for whatever reason falls short of the authenticity benchmark wrong font wrong font style wrong placement he she opens the possiblity of a full engine authenticity deductionComment
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Re: NCRS Judging Criteria
re ncrs judging criteria gene manno we should answer carl's question the stamping on the block is just an identification for the engine the v i n and trim tags are just identifications for the car's bird cage both the trim tag and the block are just parts of the car i'd have to agree with carl's original question why is one block allowed to be restored and or replaced with another block and the other trim tag v i n plate are not allowed to be restored and or replaced it should be noted that in many states this type of restoration is not legalComment
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Re: NCRS Judging Criteria
re ncrs judging criteria jerry hi jack this single response is one of the finest written explanations of this situation i have ever had the pleasure to read on this or any other bbs thank you for sharing your insight as i truly appreciated it sincerely jerry clarkComment
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Re: NCRS Judging Criteria
re ncrs judging criteria jack humphrey the recent issue got mine yesterday of the ncrs uk chapter's vette torque newsletter gave a full page dissertation by chapter vice chair barry morris on the results of his recent flight judging of his ' specifically he puts in print how he'd thought about dumping a perfectly good corvette who's only sin was the loss of its original motor how he went about restoring the engine compartment to make a numbers matching power plant how he resisted the temptation to add horsepower or engine options and how he received an almost unblemished flight rating for his restoration as a result under scrutiny of the ncrs national team leader for ' who flew to england to judge the car this in my book is healthy no back alley lurking about the fact his car has a restored numbers matching correct engine and the fact it is not the factory original motor in the car all this put into print for the world to see and know come on guys this is a hobby sport there's a fine line between original and restored we at ncrs and those at bloomington recognize the difference we have flight judging for restored cars and bowtie judging for factory original vehicles yes it's possible to have both honors but this is the exception rather than the rule on vin there's only one place on a car where the vin is recorded and displayed there are many other places where manufacturer's place vin derivative numbers like the stamp pad of an engine's cylinder case i'd argue in any court restamping an engine to restore it is not fraud if it were then we'd have to arrest the folks that work at machine shops and those that do replacement engine motor swaps plus many jap cars built since the late ' 's have vin derivative id codes embedded in the internal layer of their shatterproof window glass should we be arresting folks who replace their windshields with non factory original matching numbers no the issue is fraud fraud takes a deliberate transmission of faulty information from the seller that the buy relies on to his financial detriment if someone restores a power plant gains an ncrs or bloomington recognition award and sells the car as a numbers matching restoration that's what it is where's the deception or financial loss to the buyer on the other hand if the seller makes a sb into a bb or sells the car as a factory original motored vehicle and that deception prohibits the new owner from getting what he thought he was contracting for that's bad should be prevented thwartedComment
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Re: NCRS Judging Criteria
re ncrs judging criteria ed mccomas not to get too involved with this thread but it is a federal offense to alter deface or destroy the vin derivative stamped on any automobile part this is according to an attorney friend who is not into cars but researched the issue for me i interpret this to mean that the legal problem occurs when someone removes an existing vin derivative not when they stamp a vin derivative into a front pad the fact that it is done all of the time doesn't make it any more legal just one of the many laws that is not enforcedComment
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Re: NCRS Judging Criteria
re ncrs judging criteria jack humphrey dad wept when i said i wanted to go to engr school everyone else in the family grandfather father uncles brother were practicing attorneys to this day i have learned to appreciate the intricicies of legal interpretation and leave them to those skilled in the art so i do not offer legal opinion on the subject other than say there are 's of business across the us that remove replace original mfgr created vin derivative info in the course of everyday business for good technical reason s like replacing broken glass truing warped mechanical surfaces and executing repair by component replacement the us constitution requires equal enforcement of the law so if your attorney's advice is correct and applicable to all states we should have lots of cops making a jillion arrests suspect there's more here than we lay folks understand in really understanding the nuissances of interpretationComment
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Re: NCRS Judging Criteria
re ncrs judging criteria ed mccomas i stand corrected by myself it is apparently not a federal offense to remove or replace the vin derivative if it is done for restoration purposes among others check title united states code section for the specificsComment
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