Do these weaselwords make my ass look big?

[Mark #28455]

so who blew up the 351 block

That it had in the last auction? Or did he just decide because he was busted the last time, he would sell it with a cheaper 1968 block and save the 351 for another effort?
Mark

[Jack W.]

now the Tank sticker(s) is back on the car? *NM*

[Mark Milner]

Is it the wrong or the high price?

That has set everyone on here on this huge crusade of late?

People have for the last 30 years or more elaborated on how great their particular Corvette was.

Pro Team has run ads like this for 20 years or whatever they have been around. I didn't see any protesters outside their shop.

There is a '69 blue coupe on eBay now with the single defining rarity that it has an M22 in it. No engine, no evidence of a big block, but it has an M22 so it is rare. Yet no one is blasting it on here.

[Mark #28455]

he says not matching # M22 so its OK *NM*

[Jack W.]

Re: Is it the wrong or the high price?

say what you will about PTeam, but they don't create fake tank stickers and other documentation in support of a claimed original factory L89 with a warranty replacement L89 engine (and then represent it as such to magazines and sell it as such) when the car seems to have begun life as something else. Search for "L89 ebay tank sticker" in the Oct 05 time frame on this board for more info on this particular car (much discussion also went on regarding this car and the earlier ebay sale effort on the CAC, but the operators of that site removed all of those threads so the owner/seller would not be haunted by the truth about his car, it seems). I guess I could sum it up as "there's a history here."

[G B.]

I probably wasn't clear.

I think people who use an old Corvette to commit fraud are unethical scumbags that deserve exposure. Maybe we wouldn't have this problem today if we had all been huge crusaders / protesters outside the crooked shops for the last thirty years. But no, we just licked our collective lips about the ever increasing scam auction prices and looked the other way.

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm sure sick of this crap. If you aren't, maybe we just have different tolerance levels for scumbag behavior.

[Dick W.]

Re: I probably wasn't clear.

I have followed the collector Corvettes for over 25 years. Deja vu! Nothing has really changed, Jerry you remember the bogus FI cars of the 70's that sold for close to an astronomical $10k. Same rats in hobby with different names, avenues for marketing (Ebabes, etc). As long as there is a buck to be made they will always be there. At least twice as many first generation Camaros are for sale than GM made. You could say this for about every collector car. Our only hope is to educate the buying masses about the importance of verifying what they are paying for is what they get.

[G B.]

Uh...... "BACK on the car"?

"There is a tank sticker still on car...." implies to me that it has never been off.

You mean it has?

[Jack W.]

Re: now the Tank sticker(s) is back on the car?

well, there were some tank stickers (how lucky to find two!) floating around a few months ago for this car, none of which were still on the car . . . . I think the doc did a nice side by side of them

[Mark Milner]

Re: I probably wasn't clear.

Our tolerances probably are different. Isn't everyone's?

But what I have been seeing is that certain cars are picked on. Not all cars. You go through eBay on what is listed today and you'll find lots of Corvettes that are very misrepresented. However, very few does anyone from here make a big deal about.

I am a very honest type. I feel we may have a lot in common based on your comments and your Corvette eBay ads.

However, in a search of 223 Corvettes from 1957 to 1972 on eBay

http://search-completed.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=so&sbrftog=1&fcl=3&combine=y&from=R10&catref=C12&satitle=Corvette+%281957%2C1958%2C1959%2C1960%2C1961%2C1962%2C1963%2C1964%2C1965%2C1966%2C1967%2C1968%2C1969%2C1970%2C1971%2C1972%2C57%2C58%2C59%2C60%2C61%2C62%2C63%2C64%2C65%2C66%2C67%2C68%2C69%2C70%2C71%2C72%29&sacat=6001%26catref%3DC6&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1&fgtp=&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=34471&fis=2&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&so=Show+Items

I find the following:

Item 4599769858

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Corvette-1966-CHEVROLET-CORVETTE-COUPE-427-4-SPEED-SILVER-BLAC_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6168QQitemZ4599769858QQrdZ1

Item 4599279532

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Corvette-SERVICED-1964-CHEVROLET-CORVETTE-ROADSTER-RECENTLY-RESTORED_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6168QQitemZ4599279532QQrdZ1

Item 4599278722

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Corvette-AUTOMATIC-1970-CHEVROLET-CORVETTE-COUPE-ORIGINAL-MATCHING-NUMBER_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6168QQitemZ4599278722QQrdZ1

Item 4599163584

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Corvette-283041999_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6168QQitemZ4599163584QQrdZ1

Item 4599095879

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Corvette-MATCHING-1967-RED-RED-BODY-OFF-CONV-W-DOCKS-SHARP_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6168QQitemZ4599095879QQrdZ1#ebayphotohosting

Item 4599487313
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevr...99487313QQrdZ1

How come no one is making a campaign on these? They all say one thing, and are actually something else. Like the restored '64 with the '63 gauges.

I take a different approach. I think it is the money. I feel a little cheated when some crook takes his $15,000 project, puts $25,000 worth of clone into it, and then passes it off as a $75-$100,000 car or a $175-$200,000 car. It is like, hey, my car is just as good, why shouldn't _I_ have some of that?

So my approach is devalue them. Make this counterfeiting worthless to them.

NCRS is about restoration. So judge that way, since our rules say we do. Does it look like typical factory production, like another person on here has mentioned? If so, give them points. If not, decide how far off it is and deduct that many points. Originality is not a factor. If you judge originality, then any new looking seat on a 40 year old car with more than 10,000 miles is NOT original, and everyone knows it.

Does it look like original? Yes, give points. If no, then how far off.

Screw these guys with "original engine is better". It is JUST AN ENGINE. They all run the same, if built the same. I could build a 435 hp 427, you could build a 435 hp 427, or John Hinckley could have built a 435 hp 427 38 years ago, and they would all run the same if we build them to spec. A few scratches on front and some indentations mean nothing to how it runs or how well it was built.

Yes, I hate to see some guy get screwed by some crook who is faking and defrauding with his "original" car that he built a few years ago. But life is like that. I was responsible for buying the car with the 327 that had a small bore of only 3.875 instead of 4.000 inches. The guys who bought many 427s witht eh"small 427" in them of 4.094 bore have only themselves to blame.

I won't cheat someone, I will help someone not to be cheated, but I can't save the world, simply because no one wants me to. It isn't that they haven't asked us to save them, they don't want us to save them.

[G B.]

You lost me.

Your eBay examples aren't anything close to fraud using forged documents, so what's your point?

If you think you can force the market to devalue anything based on sheer willpower, then knock yourself out. As far as "screwing" everybody who thinks an original engine is better... I have no response to that.

As for "picking" on cars where the sellers are clearly trying to deceive potential buyers with forged documents, I plan to continue. I would call the police if I saw someone selling drugs on the public street in front of my house. I'm damn sure going to notify people in the Corvette community when someone is trying to pass off fake documents to defraud them. You can do whatever you like or nothing at all about the growing problem.

[GL Anderson]

Re: You lost me.

I can agree with with both Mark and Jerry. I didn't even get involved with the fake ebay L-88 until it was brought to my attention that it was on ebay. Like Jerry and since one of the forged doucments had the name of a company that I still own what is left of I wanted the potential buyers to know the real truth. I do not have enough knowledge on what is right or wrong with most years of Corvettes so stay out of the way of the experts when that kinda stuff gets argued on this board. I would like to read the Drive Line more as guys may be looking for a car we sold in the past but since I got exactly 2 Drive Lines and 2 Restorers in a year of membership that doesn't work worth a damn. If somebody wants to build a very nice car that just happens to have a 427 and not the original 327 go ahead and do it. Just sell it for what it is and make sure the buyer understands. That however doesn't mean it won't be passed off as something it isn't in the future. Some folks don't really care if the car was once a 300hp with minimal options if it represtents what they want now, then it will still bring big $$$ because it is what their dreams are made of. There really is money out there and buyers that have wanted a (pick a color here) (pick an engine here ) you get the idea. Almost all the guys he wants to show it off to after purchase won't understand matching numbers and date coded wigets so the owner feels like he made a good deal getting just the car he dreamed of for years until he could afford it without having to put a dent in the family budget. The real problem and it has been a problem for years is the number of built cars showing up all the time that are passed of as restored original. I and others went after the ebay L-88 for reasons stated above. I don't see doing anything like that again. Unless you have unfailing proof that the car is a fake with fake documents to back it up, I feel you may be at some risk by trying to expose it. Mark is right in many ways, an engne is just an engine. I doubt that NCRS will be adding a bunch of classes to cover all bases on restorations outside the current guide lines. It is an NCRS playing field and if you want to play then you have to follow the rules as written right now. I remember John Amwergt telling me many years ago if the numbers match (meaning all numbers, stampings etc) then that was OK no matter what the car started out as. Now many things have been learned over the years and some folks screw with casting numbers, dates, stampings and broach marks so the car can be either judged and or sold for big money with the knowledge that things are not as presented but meet NCRS standards. Is this fraud, you be the judge. In other areas of the car collecting hobby, cloning is common and well recieved. Cloned COPO Camaros bring big money, as do almost all brands. The seller even puts in the ad the the car is a clone. I don't see how this wouldn't work with Corvettes. Build a fake L-88 and do the best job possible. Don't try to pass it off as a real one with fake documents. Sell it as a Clone. It will sell and for pretty big $$$$$$$. Or is NCRS part of the problem? The high standards of NCRS are a good thing and shouldn't be compromised. But that said are those standards a guideline for the those out there that want to fake up a car and know just what to do because of those exact standards. It used to be easy to trace a car back thu previous owners and get the real story, not any more so the forgers out there are more insulated. Wow this post is really chopped up and gone on long enough, just some of my thoughts. GL

[Clem Z.]

the big problem is that there is no way of

checking on a "cloned" corvette but the camaros have a way of telling just by the vins and the body tags. same for fords and D/C products. for some strange reason GM did not think it was necessary to do this for corvettes by listing the engine option in the vin.

[Jack W.]

Re: I probably wasn't clear.

ya know, I heard this "why are you picking on this person" response when this seller last put this car, in this fashion, on ebay. You (Mark) are right, of course, not EVERY single "funky" ebay sale of a C1, C2 or C3 gets this much detailed attention - perhaps, as Jerry suggests, they should (I side with him there, in theory) but the answer to your question in this instance is pretty basic, as it was before - ANY time there is a purported real '67 L88 (20 were produced originally) or '67 L89 (sweet 16) put up for sale, it is going to get the attention of those who really love these cars, and even those who are mildly interested but know the high points. Here, someone claims to have found a documented original '67 L89 in a field (that got a warranty replacement L89 engine installed early on), and put it back into shape.

That ain't no '65 L76 (what I have), nor is it even a '67 435 hp BB - this car is one of a very select few. Naturally the story and its sale are going to get unusual attention. If the seller wanted to be left alone, he shouldn't have claimed to have bedded Marilyn Monroe.

[Mark Milner]

NCRS and Clones

One reason you won't see clones in Corvettes is that they are instantly devalued or attacked. NCRS claims to be about restoration, but they send a lot of mixed signals.

Restore a Camaro to an RS396, great. Restore a Corvette to a 435 hp, COUNTERFEIT!

Judging claims they are not appraisers and do not determine value, BUT THEY DO! As soon as they look at a stamp pad, they declare it "original" or not. If original, the value goes up. If not, it goes down. So maybe NCRS is right, they don't determine value, they SET it.

If NCRS doesn't want to be party to this counterfeiting, they need to remove "originality" from the engine. It should look correct, and by their own terms, "appear to be typical of factory production". Using 20 power scopes, comparing to 100 5x photographs, etc. is not about "appearing" but about determining if original or not.

Currently, the originality in the engine doesn't mean "looks like an original" as in other parts of the car, but "is original" unlike the other parts of the car.

I understand GL's point of view. His name was on the line. In that case, I think he needed to do this and he needed support from many on here. This car was fraud. This L88 needed to be gone after, however, there have been many others that have been gone after that have not had piles of fraud and yet many others that reeked of fraud but no one cared.

I think this group, or NCRS, or both, need to be careful in how this is done so that it is equal to all, or someone might do something about selecting certain individuals and harassing them.