?Changes to the TIM & JG?

[Mark Milner]

Re: ?Changes to the TIM & JG?

The difference is that you have the history on your car as original and could argue the case if need be. You also stated "MOST of the judges", but that is the rub, not all judges, and that is exactly what can get a person.

You were also blessed with an original car that also mirrored typical factory production. If your original car didn't, you would have been dinged more than those one or two points along the way.

While at the Hilton at Kissimmee a few years back, I heard a judge/instructor tell a group he had about a part on a '66 convertible that was wrong. The owner happened to be there, and stated that not only was it right, it was original. The judge insisted it was wrong and had been changed. The owner said he was the original owner and the item had never been changed.

Few people have that authority to state something is not only right, but original because they have owned it since day 1![i] So for most people, they would have lost those points.

Also, not everyone has the opportunity to own one complete, untouched, and intact like yours. Many have some sections that have been changed, usually hoses, clamps, filters, and so on at least. So while some areas have to be restored to TFP or NCRS, others areas may still be original, yet can get nailed because since the owners have changed/restored some areas, they do not have the weight to carry as if the whole car had been untouched when it comes to items the judges believe wrong.

I have the PV and judging sheets on a '62. Nothing on there was a major issue. A washer that wasn't needed. A heater hose slightly too long. Everything was a point here, a point there. Yet 98 points were deducted. Had there been a major issue somewhere, the points would have added up fast.

I'm not saying it is impossible, just harder. If you want to win at anything, you have to follow the rules to the letter and decide what you can bend or not bend. No way can you play by a different set of rules and expect to win completely.

And that is what this is. To ensure your Top Flight, you comply with everything in the judging manual. If you want to chance it, stay how the car came from the factory untouched. In your case, they matched.

You didn't mention your scores, not that you need to. But were there some areas that you could have gotten more points and a higher score if you followed the judging manual rather than leave it original? Of course, that would have messed up the Bowtie.

[Patrick H.]

Re: ?Changes to the TIM & JG?

Mark,

Things to better match the judging manual? Yes. Remove rust. Heh heh heh.

One thing that I believe is original to the car is the black paint on the sides of my spare tire carrier. The car is Sunflower Yellow (bright color) and was heavily retouched at St. Louis. Since the rear of the car was not touched by prior owners (until about 1998, but I know exactly what was done), and the original tub is a very dark gray, why would it ever get painted black? To cover the yellow overspray? Don't know, but I always get dinged on it. I will never remove it, however.

I've had judges in error on paint on my upper control arm shafts, configuration of ball joint cotter pins, and configuration of rear bulkhead wiring harness. I personally don't believe they all had red dots on the headlight actuators, but that's only my opinion.

My car also has the "incorrect" radiator cap. But, I never got dinged for it. Ha ha. Ironic, given the article coming out in the next Restorer.

I purposely wanted to have the car TF in its pre-Bowtie condition, partly to show it could be done and that the car was that nice. I ended up with 95.4% at the Hershey National in 2003 (no driving points), and it would have been 96% if I'd had a repro battery in it like I do now. To make Duntov I "found" about another 0.7% or so I could easily change or improve upon and not really alter the car. But, I couldn't bring myself to repaint, replate or replace for that last 0.3% and the Duntov attempt.

So, I bring the car out frequently for instructional purposes, and allow others to learn.

Patrick

[Michael H.]

Black Paint On The Spare Carrier

Patrick,

If a Corvette is all original, it's supposed to have a black coating on the spare tire carrier. It's correct. In the 60's and early 70's, when the mufflers were blacked out, the over spray almost always coatedat least part of the mufflers. I've seen some 60's cars with an 1/8" coating of chassis black near the bottom of the carrier.

If you can visualize the chassis coming down the line about 16" above the floor on the conveyor, you can easily understand the angle that the spray gun was at when the mufflers were coated. Probably about 30* up from horizontal, which would have allowed quite a bit of material to hit the mufflers and the tire carrier. Bet there isn't even one restored car in the country that has this duplicated on the tire carrier. Also, if you ever see this coating on the tire carrier of a side exhaust car, something isn't exactly right because there wouldn't have been any mufflers in that area to coat.

Not sure but I believe this coating changed from chassis black (goo) to semi flat black paint some time in the early or mid 70's. Isn't Corvette research fun?

[Mike E.]

Re: ?Changes to the TIM & JG? Left out a point

Mark, your numbers are flawed in terms of how many cars have been used for establishing TIM &JG guidelines. You're assuming that we've based those on the cars we've judged--not true. I've headed up 2 revisions, been involved in a third, and am now co-chairing a 4th revision of the manual.
I have been looking at and studying 61's and 62's since 1974. I have nearly 1000 of them in my files. Every observation I have made has been on parts/configurations that I believed, to the best of my judgment, were on UNRESTORED cars, not restored cars. I have another team member who has an extremely critical eye (read "anal retentive") who has studied nearly as many as I have, and who has the advantage of being in Southern California, where frame and other paint markings many times still exist.
Are there incorrect things in the manual? I'm sure there are. We do our very best, and we look, study, observe. I've taken magnifying glasses to old magazine articles, factory photos, etc. to try to determine not only standard builds, but anomalies as well.
I've seen an original owner 20k mile 62 with a 2268 generator with a proper date code on a 300hp car.And hundreds more. I've determined in judging, and given full credit, for a block cast one day after it was stamped. (Or was it stamped one day before it was cast?)
A good judge is not one who has owned one car, and now judges everyones' car based on what his was like. A good judge is not an egomaniac. There are inferior judges and there are outstanding judges. Don't lump them all together.
In addition, when it comes to anomalies, the judging manual cannot speak to or anticipate all of those. Actually, it can. We can pare the manual down to one brief paragraph and dispense with all the rest. We can say "We don't really have any idea how your car was built at the factory, so whatever parts you claim are original on your car get total credit, and we know that 'that is the way it was when I bought it', therefore it must have come from St. Louis that way."
Try doing a manual some time--it's quite an experience!

[Mark Milner]

[Patrick H.]

Re: Black Paint On The Spare Carrier

Michael,

If you have any pictures of the early 70s showing this, I'd like to see them. My understanding is that by the early 70s, the chassis black paint was applied to the mufflers without having the spare tire tub yet installed, or the mufflers were actually painted by Walker and then installed. Either way, "everyone" told me it shouldn't be there.

I agree that it's in perfect position to have been overspray from the side. It's one of the few features of the car I do not have in a photograph, so I will have to wait until Spring to show it to you. It's definitely a semi-flat colored paint, not chassis goo.

Patrick

[Michael H.]

Re: Black Paint On The Spare Carrier

Patrick,

It believe it was in the early or mid 70's that the entire final chassis blackout process ended but I don't know exactly when. Guessing, I would say probably around 72 or 73. This process wes done near the end of the chassis line and at that point, the tire carrier and complete exhaust system had already been installed. In fact, these items were installed at about the same time on the first segment of the chassis line when the frames were still inverted. There was no paint station anywhere near that area which eliminates the possibility of the mufflers being coated before the tire carrier was installed. The only way the mufflers could have been coated without overspray on the tire carrier would be if they were coated prior to installation, as you mentioned. This is quite possible, and likely, in the mid 70's as the EPA reg's were beginning to get much more serious and semi open air painting at the Mill was quickly becoming a thing of the past. If I remember correctly, that coating changed to a thin flat black paint in place of the chassis goo that was used in the 60's and early 70's. We'll probably never know exactly how this was done at that point in time. The 60's were a lot easier because assy line procedures weren't changing monthly.