Judging with engine replacment...which way to go>

[Collin MacDonald]

During my restoration the past 4 years I needed to replace the engine block. I have worked very hard to assure the car would be correct in every detail, using the JM, CD's, Nolans Bood, Corvette by the numbers, Susie Q, and on and on. well due to sever damage to the block, actual leaks through the cylinder walls in the casting, already bored 60 over, I was forced to replace the block.
I want to have my car judged fair and square, so I hope you experienced club members will be honest with me. I have worked VERY hard to go Top Flight.

Under recommendations from several NCRS members I went to Engines Limited and worked very hard with Randy to make sure the original engine that was damaged was replaced EXACTLY to the specifications with a replacement version. I removed an L76 and replaced it with an L76. The engine had the same cast month, December as the engine that was removed. EVERTHING about the engine was the same. I paid extra to have it broched and the ORIGINAL Numbers put on the engine pad. This is a 63 SWC. I make no bones about deception, I am up front about it. Now my question is this, when being judged do you tell the judge up front, wait until being asked, deny it and say no this is original? I prefer telling when asked...am I correct on this. secondly...how is this judged? Can I still earn top flight? I am not trying to pull something over on anybody....I want to approach this in an honest direct manner, but really feel I possibly could get penalized to a point all my hard work and expense over the past 4 years are in vain because of this situation. By the way, when I pulled the old engine out I deleted the numbers on the pad, so there would not be two blocks with the same numbers.

Should I just give up membership in the NCRS and go with NCCC or am I still wecome here. I read ALL this stuff about these stupid pad numbers and I fell my restoration was done for nothing.... I feel like an outcast because of all the things that are said. My brouch and numbers look just like the originals but are little clearere to read know...did I do wrong? Can I ever be accepted in a restorers club, after all I did was restore a Corvette... By the way, this Corvette was one step from the junk yard, and I replaced EVERY NUT and BOLT, I made sure EVERTHING was had dates was original and dated properly, and the repro was dated properly. I spent more on this car then I should have, and probably will get point taken off for over restoration, but my conern is the block... How many points will I be penalized, and do I stand a chance for Top Flight? Be honest but kind please..

[William O.]

Re: Judging with engine replacment...which way to

Only sugestion I have: If you have the original block ...seek out a pro machine shops and ask if they can repair or re-sleave the block.

Or...Just make the best of a restamped block and hope for the best, but then ...it not real.

Regards.

[Mark #28455]

do you know how many restamps there are?

There are a HUGE number of restamps out there! One engine restamper I spoke with has personally done over 1500 Corvette engines! So, you are not alone. There has been a statement in the past from an NCRS official defining restoring vs. counterfeiting of engines, specifically if you replace a correctly dated and stamped engine of the exact HP type that was originally in the car, this is by definition a restoration. The example used for counterfeit was placing a BB that was restamped to look correct into an original SB car.

In theory, the NCRS judge should not penalize you if the broach marks and stampings truly look correct. (they've obviously missed at least a few restamps)

You are guilty of fraud if you ever sell the car and claim the engine to be "original". You can also potentially get into trouble if a later buyer then sells the car as original. If you ever sell the car, I would recommend having the buyer sign (with a witness) that he is aware of the replacement engine and that he will not misrepresent the car in the future. That way the chain of responsibility ends with him, not you.

Good luck,
Mark

[Collin MacDonald]

Re: Judging with engine replacment...which way to

Thanks for response, however I did that and the block was to far gone...it was a boat anchor...could not be resleved as the walls were to weak because of metal fatigue and serious casting flaws. I did consult with some NCRS members who are well known, as a matter of fact they suggest I contact Engines Limited and thats what I did...Randy is a great guy who was very straight and honest all the way. I have nothing to say but the best about Engines Limited...but I really am asking very direct questions about the judging in this case.

[Collin MacDonald]

Re: do you know how many restamps there are?

Thank you Mark for your answer...as you can see I am very open and honest about his whole ordeal and have no intention as making false claims. As a matter of fact would I post on this site with the intention of having the car judged? My point is I have read over and over again this entire issue of restamping and fraud etc.and I don't want to be identified as one of those people who are dishonest. I just want to bring it to the open as show members there are people who are stamping engines that are honest and working hard to restore their cars, and should NOT be looked down upon by members who are lucky enough not to have had to replace an engine... Is it better to save a midyear Corvette form the wrecking ball and try to restore it back to its showroom days, or to let it be destroyed at the junk yard? Should I be penalized because I had to replace and engine, but did and exact bolt to bolt replacement? From all the posts I read about restamping I feel like a second class member and I should not feel like this, so I am trying to find out from this membership am I on equal grounds since I did a replacement of the block or am I now a second class member?

[Tracy C.]

Re: Judging with engine replacment...which way to

Collin,

First of all, you can still Top Flight without the original engine. If the cylinder case is correct, you stand to lose 88 points if the broach marks and stampings differ from typical factory appearance. If the broach marks pass, you might even collect full credit for the stampings if they are correct... But don't hold your breath. The stamp pad judges are pretty dang good. Even if you lose the 88 points out of 4500, this leaves quite a bit of margin on other things for a Top Flight score.

As far as what you tell the judges, you need to honest if they ask you about the engine. That said, I think most people wait until they ARE asked about it. You aren't expected to spill your guts about anything on the car. They are judges. It's their job to figure it out..

And most of all, you aren't a "second class" member because you have a replacment block. Eeegads man, if you were, at least 75% of the rest of the club would be too.

Good Luck on the Journey to blue ribbon, we all need a little bit of that.

tc

[Collin MacDonald]

Re: Judging with engine replacment...which way to

Tracy.

I actually do feel better, now I can drive it without the fear of calling a tow truck. My only regrets was spending so much time and money trying to save the original block. I would recommend to any newbie that if the block is really bad, and your gut tells you so, don't spend the time or money to try to create a mircle...hey this car was one step from the junk yard and now its one step from top flight...four years, hard work, and folks like you have helped me along this journey....and it will end with a blue ribbon...

Tracy FYI...found a set of MATCHED steel wheels, has even the date 63 and the stamps and everthing inside...been in storage for 40 years...they look GREAT...going to blast them and repaint..do your recommend primer on the wheels before the gloss black?

[Tracy C.]

Re: Judging with engine replacment...which way to

Glad to hear you found some wheels. Yes you need to prime them first. They were "dip primed" originally and then spray painted on the hubcap side with gloss black enamel.

Unless you have a large tub of primer, it's tough to do the dip job. You can duplicate it somewhat by first spraying a coat of primer on the wheels and then pouring a cup of primer on them and rolling the wheel around a little. I don't think the primer runs are actually judged though. This is just a little tidbit from the "anal retentive" file..

take care,
tc

[Jack W.]

Re: Judging with engine replacment...which way to

you can take a 63 that was delivered with a 300 hp engine and put a well done restoration engine dressed as an L76 in there if that is the configuration you are going for Colin, it is an appears as delivered game, not an everything is original game. Good luck with your car and your TF efforts.

[Roy B.]

Re: do you know how many restamps there are?

I admire your honesty , I' v judged many Corvettes asking the owner weather this or that part is a repro, not all but many say no or play dummy when I know they know the answer. I never challenge them face to face because I feel that type of person isn't worth the effort. Even if I did that day ,there are other days when they will fool some one els and still get what their after. You being honest should NEVER feel second to any one and if some one gives you that altitude remember them and just write them off.
There may be people like that in NCRS and any other Club. I try my best to be honest ,I have Corvette enemies but many more real friends.
I see you put your love and money in to your Corvette as I have but you'll never please every one. Be proud of what you' v done and the hell with any one that may put you down.

Don't be ashamed that some one may comment on your engine , Gee!! look at what I drive to NCRS and still got a top flight.

[Joe R.]

Re: Judging with engine replacment...which way to

Hi Collin:

I think you might be able to relax a little if you spent some time with the Judging Reference Manual. Out of 4500 total points allocated to the car, 350 are assigned to the block. If you have the wrong casting number, you lose all 350 points and there is no way to get Top Flight (maximum loss of 270 points).

Now here is the interesting part. If you have the correct casting number and a correct casting date, but EVERYTHING about the pad is wrong (wrong engine code, wrong VIN derivative, and wrong broach marks), you lose only 88 points. So, you can still get Top Flight with a completely incorrect pad, as long as the rest of the car loses no more than 182 points.

You seem to have the impression that the judges can simply throw you out if they don't like your pad, but the most that they can deduct for the pad is 88 points.

In practice, those 88 points are further divided into 25 points for the engine plant stamping, 25 points for the VIN derivative stamping, and 38 points for the broach marks. Depending on how well the restamping was done, you may get some or all of those 88 points.

Had you posed your question BEFORE you had the work done, I would have suggested that you leave the pad alone on the engine you got from Engines Limited. You describe it as a correct L76 with a correct casting date. Presumably the broach marks were okay, so maybe the only deduction you would have gotten was 25 points for the VIN derivative.

The benefit of that approach is that everyone involved knows that the engine is not original, so you could relax about that aspect and not worry about what people are thinking about you and your car. The point loss is not huge.

A guy in my chapter (Mark Lincoln) wrote an article in the Restorer titled "Duntov Without the Numbers." He managed to find a block for his car that was correct in every way except that the VIN number differed by about 10 cars from his. He just left the pad that way and took the 25 point hit during judging. He still got a Duntov.

In any event, I hope you can relax and keep the pad issue in perspective. Even if the pad judges poorly, the pad alone can not prevent you from getting Top Flight. While some people object to restamping under any circumstances, the official position of the NCRS is that you have a "restoration engine," which is as legitimate as any other step you have taken to make the car appear as it did when it was new.

[Rob M.]

Re: Judging with engine replacment...which way to

Hi,

My personal opinion is that it is the judges their job to judge your car. If they ask you about the stamp matter simply don't answer the question but refer it to after the judging is done. They should form their opinion on what they see, smell, feel, taste, hear about your car. Let them decide themselves and assign the deducts as they feel appropriate. Then when discussed afterwards you can be open en honest about their doubts so they can learn for their future judging activities...

That is what restoration is about: make it as close as it was. If everything was original and brand new then there was nothing to restore (and you shouldn't get any points since no hard work is done, only money is spend or your have been very patience ;-)!!!

greetings,
Rob (junior (low level) judge)

[Jack W.]

Great post Joe, I agree 100% - would go that way 2 *NM*

[Collin MacDonald]

Re: Judging with engine replacment...which way to

Joe and Rob,

Thanks for you answers, this is what exactly what I was looking for. I have never had a car judged by NCRS and just in life I am a perfectionist and stickler for detail. I was told be several who so the pad unless I told them they couldnot tell, one was an NCRS Judge. So I have to assume for now the stamping and broaching was done correctly.

I am releived to hear that I still can participate and go for TF. Please understand where I am coming from. It seems many of the topics and responses in this forum is about restamping and its evils. But I have never really seen somebody owe up to it. I think if more people understand that restamping in some cases is acceptable if people admit the engine is restored, and people (not the greedy and crooked ones, they won't change), but the serious restorers understand that taking the time and effort to find the correct engine and only replacing one for one, this is acceptable in the NCRS.

I was undecided for a long time on what to do, finally after reading post after post of people going to the extremes of developing tools to measure character size and spacing and ALL the talk about doom and gloom on restamping engines, I thought I would open the door for fresh air and bring to the table a person who has integrity and honesty to test the waters on how it will be accepted.

I plan to work hard at chapter level to get TF and plan to be in Boston for the National... All my plans depended upon what the folk on the NCRS Technical Discussion accepted or rejected what I did. It appears to me my plans will go ahead and I will go for TF...with no fears. Thanks all...

[Jack H.]

Easy answer...

When you enter the car for judging, you'll get a score sheet package and the 'top sheet' sometimes called the 'green' sheet has a section called Exceptions/Declarations. This is a 'confessional' of sorts.

Write NOM (non-original motor) there and you're done. Judges are NOT allowed to see/use the owner's disclosures during Flight judging. They have to go by what they see and call the car's restoration as it appears (see the NCRS Corvette Judging Reference Manual for specific rules). Also, it's the judge's responsibility to MAKE their scoring determination without asking the owner probing questions. Of course, during the debriefing segment you have the opportunity to comment if you wish...

Bottom line, this sport/hobby centers around appearance. If the individual component resembles 'typical factory production' close enough, it passes without deduction(s). But, your disclosure of NOM in the Exception/Declaration section will be archieved in the NCRS National filing system even though the judges couldn't see/use the information. That way, should a subsequent owner down the road decide to cry 'foul' or 'fraud', you're officially on record (at NCRS) that you never attempted to deceive anyone with your restoration product!