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The male hood latchs on a C3 are attached with bolts that come up from the other side of the firewall and are attached with a hex head 5/16" nut, 5/16" lock washer and flat washer. The judging guides say these should be black phosphate. The hood latch black base was also black phosphate. The washers on my car are original and when observed closely have that black crystaline appearance. Does anyone have a good source for these simple nuts, washers and lock washers? I thought this would be an easy find but none of the resto sources I checked do (ie Dr. and Paragon. I am not replacing the bolts just the attaching hardware for the male hood latches. Thanks.
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Re: Black Phosphate hardware for hood latch C3
If you have the hardware I suggest you have them replated. Most plating shops can perform the phosphate process. If not , then try contacting Pacific Corvette Supply in Puyallup, Washington. I have purchased many used parts from them. They know their stuff and will ship to you. Call them at 800 228-2857.
Good luck. -
Re: Black Phosphate hardware for hood latch C3
Charles-----
Finding commercially available black-phosphate finished fastners these days can be a big problem. Black phosphate finish for fastners, once common, has now "fallen out of favor". GM once used this type of fastner finish on a wide variety of fastners for several reasons. First, it was inexpensive. Second, it provided fastner corrosion protection for a "long enough" period. Third, it was an excellent way to finish high strength fastners (SAE grade 5 and without the need for further treatment to prevent hydrogen embrittlement.
Of the relatively small number of US size fastners still available from GM, only a very small number are phosphate-finished and these include none of the pieces that you are looking for.
Black oxide is more common than black phosphate these days. You may be able to find these from souces like McMaster-Carr, but you'll have to purchase a relatively large quantity to get them----they don't sell by "onsies-and-twosies". Still, they are not really all that expensive. Black oxide is not the same as black phosphate, though. For one thing, it is "blacker". For another, it lacks the "sparkling" qualities often seen in black phosphate-finished fastners. But, it's a lot closer than zinc plated.
As has been mentioned, you can have a plater refinish fastners with black phosphate. The problem is that most platers have a minimum charge for plating. Nowadays, this is going to be in the range of $200. So, you better have a LOT of things to be refinished to make this option viable.In Appreciation of John HinckleyComment
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Re: Black Phosphate hardware for hood latch C3
Hi Charles
If you want to Phosphate your bolts, nuts, hood latch or any other parts that had zinc plating then check out ebay # 8036929196 or you or any member can contact me. grantwong@telus.net The Zinc Phosphate liquid took me about 10 years to find and aquire. ASL use to have it 20 years ago when I bought some from Don. I savored my bottle until I found some more and once gone its all gone. It was never offered to the public. I had a friend in the Chemical Business aquire the phosphate for me. Talk about red tape and I thought the government was tough to deal with. To make it really dark black you will have to use OEM Black out which I have in small 500 ml bottles. Not much left. The Zinc Phosphate took me a long time to find and they are in 1 litre plastic containers. Gerard Fuccillo has bought the Zinc phosphate from me and has excellent results. Check the postings as he has pictures of before and after. Gerard is the master of Plating.Comment
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Platers are a funny bunch
Charles. I also ran into the need of having black phosphating done on my '67 resto project. I found a co. here in town that is pretty reasonable and the results are excellent. I last dropped off about 20 bolts and it cost me $20 to get them plated. I'd try and find someone in your area that does the black phos work and just go and talk with him. Platers are a funny bunch. If they don't like your attitude, they can really stick you on the price. If you take the low key approach and just let them politely know that you are just trying to give an old car new life and need a break, you might be surprised how they work with you. Bring photos of your project and show them. They'll get the idea that you are just trying to bring an old car back to life. Be sure to media blast or thoroughly clean your parts though before plating.
As a side point about platers, I recently brought my 4 bumpers and front license bar to another plater here in the Kansas City area for chroming. There was a sign in front that read "we may not do Corvette parts". When I was going over the scope of the work on my car, I politely asked about the sign indicating that the company might not do Corvette parts. The owner flatly said that some Corvette owners have such a bad attitude about their cars that the the plater just didn't want to help out with the plating. I guess the moral of the story is: be polite. It never hurts!
Good luck.
TonyComment
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Re: Platers are a funny bunch
Tony,
Interesting anecdotes, especially the bit about not doing Corvette parts. While re-assembling my '65 with new (GM) bumpers, I had a positive experience with a bumper shop. I couldn't get the lower center extension to fit into the frame brackets, so I took the bumper to a shop that specialized in repair and replacement. They told me they had factory specs for all bumpers (including my '65's) and could bend the part to spec--don't ask me why it wasn't bent properly by GM in the first place...
Anyway, I dropped the bumper off on my way to work (about 0745) and they promised to call when it was ready. When I arrived at work some thirty minutes later there was a message waiting on my machine--bumper's ready. I picked it up that afternoon on my way home and got my second surprise of the day--no charge! As you advise, I had spent time that morning explaining my restoration project and they took an interest in seeing another classic back on the road.
BTW, the bumper fit perfectly after the re-bend.
grantComment
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Re: Black Phosphate hardware for hood latch C3
Charles,
I would check out this website for an inexpensive kit. I have used it, very simple and cheap. Can do small jobs.
www.caswellplating.comComment
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Re: Black Phosphate hardware for hood latch C3
Just used Eastwoods system. Results were good but I can't say yet how they will hold up.Comment
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Re: Black Phosphate hardware for hood latch C3
Charles,
The Caswell blackener is intended to be used with freshly zinc plated parts. I've tried it and was not happy with it
The Eastwood blackener is black oxide and is intended to work with bare steel parts. Grant's OEM Finish is similar although may have a higher concentration and slightly different ingredients. Phosphoric Acid seems to main ingredient. Both work on bare steel parts, and fair on zinc plated parts at higher solution concentrations. On zinc plated bolts you might be better off pickling the bright zinc off first with muriatic.
The gray phosphate solution per Grant's ebay item works very well, the longer you cook it the darker it gets. The OEM (black) Finish can be used prior to gray phosphate for a darker finish (as the bottle says). It may very well work after the gray phosphate (as Grant says in the ebay item) but I haven't tried it.
I'm just a tinkerer in this stuff, and by no means a master plater. I have gotten very good results on an alternator pulley with the gray phosphate.
Jerry Fuccillo
#42179Jerry Fuccillo
1967 327/300 Convertible since 1968Comment
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Black phosphate "sparkle" in a home kit
Gentlemen,
Is there no home kit that produces the near black color and with the "sparkle" that is a key characteristic of the original black phosphate?
GaryComment
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Re: Black phosphate "sparkle" in a home kit
I have done searches under automotive fasteners and have sent out wish list emails lately to parts houses without success. Most of what I have found black phosphate is J nut type parts and the like. Other restorers ie Mopar buffs, Ford people etc also grapple with factory look black phosphate issues. In fact some of the Mopar people are much more "demanding" than Corvette restorers. I am surprised they are not included in that platers welcome sign. Have you ever seen the rainbow of colors and silk screenings under the hood of a super bee or challenger?
I was hoping there would be a mother lode of virgin hardware somewhere but I have yet to find it. Did Flint and St Louis have "garage sales" at the end of their model runs or when they closed the plants? Surely there most have been hordes of unused hardware at completion of each model run. Thanks for the insights from those who have been there. If you use a zinc phosphate chemical what type of hardware finish would it work on? For instance could it be used on a grade 5 zinc plated washer to turn it black?Comment
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Restorer Article - Fall 99
Gary/Charles,
There is a great article on the subject in the Fall 1999 Restorer by Chuck Sangerhauser, it's on the CD.
I think if you use Grant Wong's(see above post)solution and method with his OEM Black (Quick Black), you will come up with that black/grey speckled finish. Grant's method is similar to Chucks and uses the same chemical- Zinc Phosphate. The more carbon in the steel, the darker it will come out. The instructions say if you want a darker color, you should pre-dip it in the Quick Black before you cook it in the phosphate.
Attached is a picture of my alternator pulley coming out of the crock pot with Grant's gary phosphate. This came out with a gray speckled finish:
Had I left it in the pot longer or pre-dipped in the Quick Black it would have probably come out with a dark gray-black speckled finish. Probably worth an experiment. If you had high carbon steel bolts they would probably come out darker without the Quick Black.
Jerry Fuccillo
#42179Jerry Fuccillo
1967 327/300 Convertible since 1968Comment
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Re: Black phosphate "sparkle" in a home kit
Hi Gary
There is no source for the Zinc Phosphate. I thought Caswell had some but he doesn't. That is why it took me so long to find a source as it is not sold to the public. Like I mentioned before It took me a very...very...very long time to find this stuff. The first time fiddling around this stuff, I did one hood latch 6 months ago. I only boiled it for 15 mins and it kind of came out light grey. Recently I had to restore some other parts for a fellow member and I reboiled the latch longer this time and it came out darker. I then sprayed some W D 40 on it and it looks really good. I don't now how to post the pic on the board.I have an NOS one and took a pic with the restored one to the right. Anyone can help? Thanks, GrantComment
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Re: Black phosphate "sparkle" in a home kit
The "sparkle" in the original phosphate coating was from the Manganese material in the original process (similar to Parkerizing), although iron phosphate was also used (and still is today, on complete steel bodies, after cleaning and prior to E-coat dip - it provides the "teeth" for the primer).
AMK Products (www.amkproducts.com) has an amazing selection of automotive fasteners, and a terrific catalog; they may not have the correct headmarks, but otherwise they can match just about any configuration and finish requirement.Comment
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Re: Black phosphate "sparkle" in a home kit
Grant-----
I'm very surprised that folks can't purchase zinc phospahe from a chemical supply house like VWR, Fisher Scientific or Matheson Scientific. Zinc phosphate is not particularly toxic (a lot of insecticides and other home products that you can purchase easily are FAR more toxic) and it's not in any way an explosive or explosive precursor. Also, as far as I know, it's not a necessary ingredient in the manufacture of illicit drugs. So, I just don't see why it's not available or has any restrictions. It's pretty much a "run-of-the-mill", inorganic chemical.In Appreciation of John HinckleyComment
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