C2 Flight Judging question??

[Dwight P.]

If I replace my original carpet with an Al Knock product and install it as the original was installed, will I loose flight judging points for originality?

As I read the 1965 Judging Manual(Paragraph 7 page 163)it states that there should not be any deductions for originality as long as the parts are "correct indiscernable from original".

Perhaps a better question...Are Al Knock products "correct and indiscernable from original".

DP

[Steve Wallach]

Re: C2 Flight Judging question??

I have heard from several sources that AL knock products are the best. I don't believe you would lose any points as the carpet is "as original", so unless you don't install it as original, you should be fine. Maybe someone with more experience in this area will chime in too though?

Good luck,

Steve

[Mike M.]

Re: C2 Flight Judging question??

doubt you'll have a problem with the interior judges if al's products properly installed. good luck, mike

[Dave K.]

Re: C2 Flight Judging question??

You may not lose any points at a chapter meet but I'm sure you'll lose one or two at a regional or national meet.

Dave K.
33108

[Robert S.]

Re: C2 Flight Judging question??

Why would one not lose points at a chapter meet but would at a regional/nation? Is it the quality/experience of the judges or are different procedures used at the regional/national?

Shouldn't both be the same? I guess the real question is, what "appears original" is more of an art than a science for judging purposes? Bob

[Harry Sadlock]

Re: C2 Flight Judging question??

It might be the knowledge/experience of the judges and how tough they are on the owner. From a knowledge standpoint I just saw a 63 that was awarded Top Flight at a local meet. He took the car to the Florida Regional and I believe he didn't make second flight. In Florida they told him he had a 65/66 front end on the car, horns that did not work, seat belts that did not work and many more originality problems. In this case I agree with the Florida judges, the front end was easy to spot. I just wonder why it wasn't picked-up at the local meet.

Harry

[Rick A.]

Re: C2 Flight Judging question??

with the development of the "matrix system" and the judging retreat the last two years, I believe judging will / should be more consistent, starting at the local chapter level. the judging retreat (last 2 years) has been great and the Master judges (100 point judges and above) really attempted to impart wisdom, knowledge, experience to those of us less-experienced judges, such as myself.

wrt the 1963 at the Florida Regional that had problems, I was an OJ and I don't know how any of the problems were missed at the Chapter level

[Dave K.]

Re: C2 Flight Judging question??

I'd venture to guess that some chapter meets have fairly in experienced judges that won't pick up details -- whereas at the Regional and National events, most of them are Master Level. This the nature of the judging progression in the NCRS, a fact that is well discussed and understood, at least in our chapter.

Dave K.
33108

[Keith B.]

There is a difference

From my experience I lost 4 points originality on my 67 black AL Knock carpet (at the nationals). There are differences from original there are easily detected. On the piping of the carpeting original had the color of the carpet thread on top and white thread underneath. The weave of the carpet is also noticable when you feel it. Original feels hard where replacement is soft.

[Robert S.]

Re: There is a difference

Wow, interesting comments Keith, thanks. I am hoping to have my car judged at a chapter meet soon. This will be my first judging experience and don't fully know what to expect.

But, I would not have interpeted the Judging Reference Manual's "appearing to be original" or the three references to "appear" to include inspecting underneath for the threading that cannot be seen/"appear" original or "appear" to include "feel"!

Guess I have a lot to learn. Its going to be interesting

[Louis T.]

Re: There is a difference

Bob, as you might have guessed, many of these judging intangibles, such as the aforementioned feel and precise minute stitching details aren't in the judging manual. (Many make it there over time as manuals get updated.) This is what separates the very experienced judges from the beginners, the latter forced to rely solely on the criteria outlined in the judging manual. This is also why deductions can vary from meet to meet. In addition, often judges will give the benefit of the doubt at the Chapter level if the nominal criteria in the manual have all been met, whereas at Regionals and Nationals, no punches are pulled. When you get right down to it, originality is about fooling the judges, and the more they know, the harder it is to fool them. It's all about appearance, and why documentation - the holy grail with respect to proving original configuration - is not reviewed in the Flight Judging process. Usually, you lose points as you move up the judging ladder, although on rare occasion, an experienced judge can actually award more points if he/she is familiar with a variation that is not spelled out in the judging manual. All in all, while not perfect (what is?), the judging process is a fascinating and informative experience for the judges and car owner.

Study the NCRS Corvette Judging Reference Manual, as well as your car year's Technical Information Manual & Judging Guide (you can also ask for copies of the judging sheets), so that you're prepared, and don't forget the "gimmes" like NCRS sticker, fire extinguisher, and battery cutoff switch (together worth 10 bonus judging points). Also, as a first-time car owner going through the process, remember that it's all about education. It probably would have helped if you had judged before, as the process would have given you some perspective. This is especially true where Chapters have enough experienced judges to pair with beginners. Don't take it personally if some items aren't deemed correct - even if in the end your car isn't awarded a Top Flight, etc. That certain items fall short of correct typical factory configuration should not be taken as a reflection of your car's worth or lack thereof. And if that's your goal, everything is ultimately correctible given enough time and money. It ultimately depends on what your goals are for the car and how you plan on enjoying it. Don't let it stress you out - enjoy it for what it is!

[Robert S.]

Re: There is a difference

Louis, that is one of the best descriptions of the judging process I've read yet! As you have suggested, I have all the manuals, the judging sheets and the "gimmes".

As far as stressing out, I'm not. I know my car is not Top Flight, but I know it has potental. That is part of the reason I want to have it judged now, so I have a better idea of where the car stands and can make educated decisions on what to do going forward. Actually, I am looking forward to seeing what the judging process is like and learn more about it. Thanks for your insight and advise, Bob

[mike cobine]

Don't shoot the messenger

This post I find interesting and it brings up a few questions that I am leery of asking based on some of the things going on in the last few weeks.

However, maybe someone can explain this.

Repeatably, we are told NCRS judges against a standard, not against other cars. Well and good. However, this note above implies that it isn't a standard they are judged against, but the experience of the judge.

It also implies that a car is judged not on the TM&JG in a national event, but on what knowledge the judge has beyond the TM&JG. So in this case, an owner who is trying to prepare his car for Flight Judging is working with an unknown set of standards.

The example of the carpet is perfect. If the TM&JG does not include this information, an owner is unable to prepare for judging. So he loses points on something he might have made right before judging rather than after judging.

Then there are deviates mentioned above. What if this car has one of those deviations, but the owner changes to match the TM&JG? Now the historical accuracy of the car has changed and another example of a deviation that may be needed in the future to show how this deviation ran through the production.

Not trying to make trouble, just trying to understand how this system is working.