Paint color judging

**Tom R.** · February 19, 2006, 05:01 AM

Re: Paint color judging

I see after 88 views...no one has waded into your query but this past weekend I sat in on the "Paint & Fiberglass" seminar for judges at the 2nd NCRS Judging Retreat (plus spent floor time) and learned if I can recollect correctly...

1. There is no such thing as a trained eye; and
2. Paint chips after 25-35 years are not an accurate reflection of the original shade.

According to one instructor...the eye does not remember color shade and therefore can only approximate. This suggests doubt goes to the owner but I believe a case at Orlando failed this test. The judge was rather adamant the shade deviated from the original shade tho he wasn't old enough at the time the original shade was being painted. The owner took a standard paint deduction of 20 percent.

What restorer painters will do is capture a chip of original paint from a surface not subjected to the elements and than have it analyzed by computer to determine the formula to mix color. As I understand it...paint will darken with age so this sample may be off and this is where a restorer painter will have to "estimate" a correct color match. Paint chips offer an approximation of shade. This is where skill and expertise come into play...is mixing all these variables to derive a formula.

So while you have the invoices for paint...it appears you do not have the mix formula and this would be key but after nearly eighteen years...whose to say your shade is not correct than the bridgehampton blue your comparing?

**Dick G.** · February 19, 2006, 09:49 AM

Re: Paint color judging: What is proper?

About 5 years ago a friend of mine had his 60 judged. The judges pulled out paint chips and compared them to his fresh resto/paint job. He was infuriated when they docked him for color. The paint chips I have seen are a poor comparison, if not totally wrong. The chips I saw at my paint stores, both PPG and Dupont do not show any signs of the metallic which are in some colors. I tested my cars color on a piece under the door panel and under the carpet. Now, when I get my car judged, If they pull out one of those paint chips, what should I do? What is proper to halt/contest this process on the judging field?????? I have been told a few judges do get this GOD mentality. Unless you are some buddy or celebrity in the corvette world I suppose. Maroon like my car is probably one the tougher colors to duplicate. I went through Autocolorlibrary through my PPG store and further tested it on the spots I mentioned. Thanks for hearing my rant. Gotta go to church and pray for patience. Have a nice day. Dick Gutman

**Stephen W.** · February 19, 2006, 10:17 AM

Re: Paint color judging: What is proper?

Colors and the tints that make them up changed so much over the years. Any of the reds or colors that use the red pigments changed drastically when they removed the lead. Red pigments also are subject to change more readily from exposure to light. Paint chips were never to be considered a standard and do not have the same makeup so therefore cannot be considered accurate. Vehicles have a lot of variation from a true "standard". Standards were made by the various paint manufacturers who produced colors for OEM. That standard would be based on the materials they were using at the time for production cars. The "factory pack" colors were indeed mixed to match these standards BUT... they may not be the same material that the OEM folks were using. Usually the factory pack colors would have a better availability of pigments so they could produce and more consistant match. Mixed colors at a local jobber had a multitude of variables starting with how the jobber treated his mixing bank to what temperature he kept his mixing room to how accurate the guy reading the scale was.
The best method we would have at this point has been mentioned here and that is to find a protected area that can be used by the jobber. The metallics have changed over time so the substitutes may have a greater brilliance or be a different size which will result in a different appearance of the final finish.
working with a good part that shows original color and using the formulas and a dedicated jobber who understands what your after is the best way to reach your goal. If this has been accomplished there should not be any issues that cannot be discussed.
Also I want to be very clear that the true color is what you have AFTER it is properly sprayed , cured ,and buffed. Paint dabs will show your in the right direction but you need to do a full sprayout to then match that to your protected area of the car. I would also document this exhaustive effort for future reference.

**Roy B.** · February 19, 2006, 10:43 AM

Re: Paint color judging: What is proper?

Many cant get white right ,if you ever saw 6 or more 53 to 54 white Corvettes none are the same tint-color. So each are on their own.

**Wayne W.** · February 19, 2006, 11:16 AM

Re: Paint color judging: What is proper?

This is a pretty complicated subject. You are dealing with more than just color. There is application technique, surface grain, type of paint etc. a whole lot of parameters wrapped up into one. If you are a painter, you know that you can take one paint mix and make it do a lot of things and look many different ways. This changes the perception of color, clarity , flip flop, etc. So just having the correct color is not enough. It is considerably easier with a solid color, but metalics present all kinds of problems when trying to achieve the look of the original applications. I can tell you that the colors seemed to me more consistent in the old days. I dont know why that was, but we usually didnt have a bunch of alternates to deal with. Now days, there may be 8 to 10 alternates that have to be considered. You should get an alternate chip book and look at it. You wouldnt believe all of the variations of the same color. So if I was judging, I would be more concerned with the whole package than just a color, unless it was obviously wrong.

**Page C.** · February 19, 2006, 12:14 PM

Re: Paint color judging: What is proper?

The latest (7th edition) of the Corvette Judging Reference Manual places the body color and paint into two sections.
1: Body Color with 85 Originility points 0 condition points

This is the shade of paint only.

The standard dedutions are:

20%

50%

100%
2: Body Paint with 45 originlity points 40 condition points

This is the material and application.

The standard deductions are:

O

20%

50%

100%
The reasons for the deductions are lengthy but spelled out in the manual.
Page Campbell

**James W.** · February 19, 2006, 12:25 PM

Re: Paint color judging

Mark,

You have a super nice looking car, both inside and out!!! My father bought an original, unrestored, low mileage (21k at the time) Bridgehampton Blue 1970 coupe back in 1978 and kept it until about 6 years ago. As I remember it, the paint on his car was slightly darker that what is in your pictures. I have some pictures of his car somewhere and will look for them this week to compare to your pictures. I can attest to the original dealer color chips being way off from what the color is actually supposed to be. I have a mint condition 1964 GM dealer's passenger car color swatches and the riverside red color on the swatch is way darker than the actual riverside red that is on the inside of my doors under the door panels. The color that my car was repainted with back in 1981 was matched using the original paint color found in the door jams and behind the door panels. I have not (yet) received a deduction for paint color when having the car judged both times, once in 1984 and 20 years later in 2004 both times with the same paint job.

Best Regards,

James West

**Michael H.** · February 19, 2006, 10:43 PM

Re: Paint color judging

Mark,

I agree with others on this issue. The different paint color/mix was not limited to products made/mixed for repaint. It happened on the assy line with new cars too. Several years ago, I had an all original paint 65 Nassau blue conv and a friend had it's twin, also all original paint. The colors on the two cars absolutely did not match. You would have guessed one was repainted with some aftermarket paint. I suppose this problem is at it's worst with metallic colors, and I can certainly understand why, but even with non metallics, there was still some variation from one car to another.

The other problem is, it's not possible to use a "paint chip" to compare colors if metallic is involved as the chip is typically only a picture of the color, not the actual paint, so the normal reflection of the metallic particles would not be a factor in different light reflectivity from within.

Judging paint shades should be done by someone that has experience and knows the facts about the random colors/shades that rolled off that assy line. Have to be flexible, within some range of course.

**Tom R.** · February 20, 2006, 05:56 AM

Re: Paint color judging

And we have judges who lack that flexibility, lack tolerance for a range of shade possibilities and are of the opinion that the benefit of the doubt goes to support their ego rather than the owner.

**Tom B.** · February 20, 2006, 11:47 AM

Re: Paint color judging

I noticed that you said you saw another car on another board and the color was darker. Never trust the shade of a color in a photograph to be a true representation of the actual car. There are just too many variables involved in photography, equipment, lighting ect. to go by a picture.

Tom

**John H.** · February 20, 2006, 05:45 PM

Re: Paint color judging

Back in the "good old days" of Chevrolet/Fisher Body assembly plants (where the body from the firewall back was painted by Fisher and the sheet metal from the firewall forward was painted in a separate paint shop by Chevrolet, and the twain never met until the Final Line after Body Drop), huge arguments were common at the end of the line between the Fisher and Chevrolet Paint Superintendents and Chief Inspectors over "off-color" issues between the doors/cowl vents and fenders/hoods. Each came armed with the color "masters" from DuPont (a 5"x8" primed and topcoated steel panel) to prove their point (DuPont split their mix lots, with 75% going to the Fisher paint shop and the other 25% going to the Chevrolet paint shop, in an attempt to minimize the "off-color" complaints and returned 500-gallon tote tanks of paint).

These frequent arguments always ended the same way - one of the hundreds of process variables was responsible, neither side owned up to it, and both parties stormed off in a huff with their package of DuPont "master panels". It was almost daily entertainment, and just amplified the insanity of the stupid Fisher Body/Chevrolet method of building cars (which disappeared when GM Assembly Division took over all the Fisher/Chevrolet assembly plants and consolidated the paint shops into one operation).

Paint is art, not science; always has been, always will be.

**Mark #44888** · February 20, 2006, 07:26 PM

Re: Paint color judging

John - very interesting history there. I didn't know that they did that! I appreciate all of the comments here on this topic. I guess until NCRS develops a computerized variance standard for each color (which would take the subjectivity of the judge out of it) and figures out a way to scan a car on the spot, this will continue to be a "human" thing. BTW, it was almost nice here in VA today - it reached a tad over 40F, so I took out the Vette to "test" the brakes and the carb too...

Paint color judging

Paint color judging

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