Correct Reproductions Radiator Caps

[Thomas D.]

Will never happen....

I say this for several reasons but mostly because we have developed a system that does not allow for a gray area. We (NCRS) can't have "maybe's" in judging manuals, it must be right or wrong.

A resent article in the Driveline pointed out several issues that I have been preaching for years and that is that tooling wore out over years of use. As tooling became dull, letters became fatter and caps got hit harder. A wide variety of ORIGINAL caps were made.

Multiple divsions of GM used similar caps and swaping and alternates were posible. The caps could appear totally different when hit hard or hit soft in the presses. Some letters may not show up at all. This rivet and that rivet.

There are currently reproductions on the market that I feel should be accepted as "possible" but possible isn't good enough. Right or wrong, those are the two choices and currently it's only wrong. Wrong letters, wrong font, wrong rivet, wrong depth, wrong arrow and we haven't even flipped the cap over.

Who is going to spend any money on making correct caps when they are never going to get them to pass judging? It's simply not worth the effort. Reproduction parts are becoming scrutinized so closely that few will pass today and I thought that our society was promoting RESTORATION. That's the R in NCRS. We are moving closer to the NCPS, P=preservation. In other words, reward only exact original parts, like, well Bloomington Gold. Isn't that their moto, preservation?

[Gary #41345]

Re: Correct Reproductions Radiator Caps

I couldn't agree with you more Tom, Now can someone define the word that starts with the letter "R" in "NCRS" Is it all about the restoration of Corvettes themselves regardless of condition or is it about the restoration of original parts that make up original Corvettes?

[John R.]

Re: Correct Reproductions Radiator Caps

I have a collection of ten radiator caps for my 58, at least two of which are original. I get a different answer from each judge I ask to pick the one most closely resembling an original.

[Barbara S.]

Re: Correct Reproductions Radiator Caps

Tom. You've given us something to think about. It's not that the judging standards should be lowered, but maybe they should just be broadened a bit more. I'm in the midst of a body off restoration on my '67, and I want to do it as closely as I can to NCRS standards. But sometimes, I feel like we pick fly sh*t out of pepper. It's a 40 year old car. Oh well...

I sure like the dated radiator that I got from you.

Tony

[Mark #28455]

the rules keep changing!

I agree that you'll have a hard time getting repros made within the current system.

How about distributor caps? Just recently the whole thing for 1968 and 1969 changed! To quote the 3rd edition of the judging guide "Original cars are known to have PATENT PENDING or PATENT 2769047 in 1968 and PAT.PENDING R or PATENT 2769047 in 1969." So, I spend a bunch of $ to get original 2769047 caps and then they say ONLY the pat pending R is OK for 1969 - WHAT HAPPENED TO THOSE "ORIGINAL" CARS? did those with the 2769047 caps get sucked up by an alien spacecraft or did the owners finally figure out how to remove the ignition shield and "lo and behold that cap is a pat. pending one not a 2769047 as I originally thought."

Did you ever see the Blue Collar Comedy Tour? "Hi, I'm a DORKFISH!!!!"

How about engine restamping? Some of our well known members are certainly involved and THAT'S OK, look at the LAST 1967 for example! I agree that we should RESTORE cars to their original specs, but how about letting the rest of us in on the process! Show us in writing and pictures HOW a correct pad is re-broached, let us know who does it well, etc.

Instead those that know tend to keep it secret and are happy to HAMMER the poor SOB who paid a lot of $ but got a bad restamp (while their own restamped engine is sitting just a few cars down and "undetected"). Hey, look Martha (no insult intended to anyone who's wife is named martha), after 35 years, I found my original engine in the want ads in the local paper - I think NOT!

I have always said, if you really want to know how or why something happens, FOLLOW THE MONEY and it all becomes obvious. Did you ever wonder why so many judges restore Corvettes or parts for $$$ ? Did you ever wonder why the ones making the biggest stink about restoration engines are the ones with a base motor no option car?

I think the best summary (to paraphrase another poster here) is that it's all a dog show! I think that most judges try VERY hard to do the right thing, they pay for the "honor" to catch grief from owners who never even turned a bolt on their car and think clearcoat paint should be original, and they're working with standards that are constantly changing. Heck, I wouldn't do it!

I bet the NCRS has changed a LOT since it's inception. My understanding is that the original members loved their cars and were trying to get them back to original, but the main part of the club was to spend time with other people who enjoyed Corvettes and were fun to hang out with and swap stories. Now the high scoring cars are selling for so much money that it's just gotten crazy and it's no longer about the fun of OWNING AND DRIVING your car. I bet Roy still has a blast driving his 1955 - does ANYONE else drive the old cars to the shows anymore?

I think we've lost sight of the whole point in owning a sports car -it's NOT just a fancy paperweight to show off to your country club friends that drive beemers.

Mark

[Patrick H.]

Re: Correct Reproductions Radiator Caps

Which current reproductions do you feel might be accepted as "possible"?

Patrick

[Thomas D.]

Who makes them...

There are (3) three different companies making reproduction caps that I know of. Contrary to what people think, Paragon, CC, and DeWitts isn't one of them. We all buy them from a supplier that I think should be left un-named since other vendors are involved here too. It's not my place to give away any companies secrets.
I will say the article in the Driveline caused a little stiring in the vendor world and many phone calls were made regarding the standard that it might set. A standard that no one could ever live up too.
To over simply it...I think we should make reproduction look as close as possible to the originals. But when you have to get out an orginal part to compare it to the repro just to find differences, we went to far. Some things are simply impossible to reproduce. In the case of the caps, just too many posibilities exist to make it a black and white situation. If I was judging a car and the information stamped (text) said the right thing, it would pass as good enough for me. Probably that's why I'm not judging?

[Roy B.]

Re: the rules keep changing! "Mark"

Mark
Your going to find fewer and fewer people talking to you if you keep agreeing with me!
That's why I've always wonted a column in the JM (1.original part) and (2. Repro part) then Condition on each.
Remember you' v been warned!!!!

[Mark #28455]

I'd really like two categories of judging

Trailer Queens and Drivers. Let the owners of trailer queens battle to the death over whatever one or two point deduction they want to argue, and let the owners of drivers fire up a barbecue grill and have a social event with some car judging as well. Kinda like a tailgate party at a football game!
Mark

[Roy B.]

Re: the rules keep changing! "Mark"

Now you did it ! you shot your self in both feet. But I like YOU.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Who makes them...

Tom,

Of course, I disagree with the statement "If I was judging a car and the information stamped (text) said the right thing, it would pass as good enough for me." I even find it unusual from you, a vendor who has spent so much time, effort and money on making radiators that are essentially indistinguishable from original. You've never said "good enough" with your radiators, so why say that with caps?

I know of one radiator cap manufacturer who makes some very, very good reproductions. I have 3 sitting here on my desk, and aside from a slight variation in the rivets is nearly indistinguishable from an original. Currently no Corvette vendors sell this product, but the caps are easily available on the internet. I find it much more accurate than the ones the Corvette vendors do sell.

In addition, original radiator caps are easily availabe on eBay, and there are people restoring them for not a huge sum. It's not like every RC-15 has been wiped off the face of the earth, and all we have is repros. There are millions of them out there to be found.

If we're going to let parts such as inaccurate repro radiator caps "fly" with full points, why not let repro Corvette America knockoffs have full points? Why not let repro tires have full points? They're close enough, right? And if base/clear paint is the right color, shouldn't that fly too?

Patrick

[Eric J.]

you would think that if 65 #22301 can be....

Completely reproduced in 32 months

(https://www.ncrs.org/forum/tech.cgi/...es/read/220417)

then we should be able to make a radiator cap...

[Patrick H.]

Re: you would think that if 65 #22301 can be....

Swapping a VIN tag isn't that hard at all.
In that "recreated" maroon 65 I really wonder what VIN stamp is on the transmission. Does it match the motor, and are all the car's date codes "off" relative to the VIN date of production?

You have to wonder...

Patrick

[Thomas D.]

Re: Who makes them...

Patrick,

I believe I know who you talking about and I am currently working with them to make the changes in rivets. You mentioned in your article that you had a copy of the GM blue prints, can I get a copy of them? I could order them through the GM license program but that would take about eight months and thirty phone calls.

As far as millions of them out there and costing near nothing I don't know about that. I saw an nos RC26 sell on ebay for $542 and John Pirkle is getting near $100 for rebuilt caps.

The ones you say are near perfect, do they include the tool marks on the side and/or the ridge you mentioned in the article?

[Timothy B.]

Re: Who makes them...

OK, I give, where do we get these near perfect caps on the internet?