NCRS Judging hypocrisy.

[Chas Henderson #28127]

Total paint deduct?

This is a strech, but, if your car has the stripes and decals for the pace car package on the car, then why not a total paint deduction like the do to cars hat had a dealer painted hood strip or a raceing strip? If the dealers installed the decals or painted a strip on the car, and neither are suppose to be on the car, why does the pace car get a lesser deduction?

Chasman

[Robert S.]

Re: NCRS Judging hypocrisy.

Anyone notice the BENCH SEATS option on Patrick Tighe's 67 "tank sticker" ?

[Michael H.]

Re: NCRS Judging hypocrisy.

Curtis,

I think I understand what you're saying and it makes sense but any options that could have been installed at the dealer, also had to be available as options installed at the plant, in order to be an official GM production option.

When a car was shipped from the plant, it arrived at the dealer with all of the options that it was ordered with. In other words, it was a finished product, minus the installation of the items previously mentioned. (hubcaps, antenna etc). If a purchaser wanted a car that was in stock, and he also wanted power steering, he could have it installed at the dealer and it would still be a correct original option that would receive full credit on the judging field. That's because the car COULD have been ordered and shipped with that option. The same would be true for any option that is available from the factory in production and also could have been installed by the factory or the dealer. I don't recall ever seeing any options on an original order form that couldn't have been installed at the plant.

The fact that there was no choice on the original 1978 order form for the placement of the decals would definitely indicate that the intention was to ship the unit with the decals in the car. I think we can all agree on this, at least.

The hard part is weather or not the decals should be on the car after delivery or new car prep. We know for sure that it definitely wasn't part of a normal new car prep and the guys that did that would scream if they had to install them for the same amount of money (book time) that they received for the normal procedure. This operation probably paid an additional hour or so, and if the dealer wanted it installed for their showroom car, they would charge the labor to the new car dept. (15A) If the customer wanted the decals installed, the charge would go back to the customer or stay internal. Either way, it was an extra cost operation, which means it wasn't something that automatically came free with the car. Someone had to pay someone.

I think, in the end, if you just ordered a new pace car and no one actually specifically ordered the installation of the decals, the car would be delivered with the decals in the box, not on the car. I certainly see your side of this issue but I lean toward the NCRS ruling. I think they have it right. Glad I'm not judging 78;s.

Reminds me of a 63 I judged many years ago. The lady that owned the car was probably about 5' tall and had the drivers seat raised to the top adjustment so she could see over the steering wheel. New 63's, however, were assembled/shipped and delivered with the seats in the lowest position of the adjustment. Do we deduct points because that's not the way the car was delivered or pass it because it was an adjustment? (I think we deducted because we decided that because the job required tools, it was more than just a minr adjustment)

[Michael H.]

Re: Total paint deduct?

Good question. Can't wait to hear some response on this one. (and people sometimes ask why I have absolutely NO interest in judging today) Too many tough decisions.

[Bill W.]

Re: NCRS Judging hypocrisy.

Mikes correct. If the pace car was ordered for stock the dealer could do what ever he wanted to with the decals. If it was a sold order it was up to the buyer. Hub caps were on the new car prep list. My po2s were exchanged for rally caps & rings when delivered, and is noted on the invoice & get ready sheet. If I had it judged I would put on the p02s or forget to bring my window sticker. Bill

[Bill W.]

Re: Total paint deduct?

All the stripes & decals were installed at the plant BUT the pace car names on the doors. Even now Some of the decals for the Monte Carlos come in a box in the trunk. We put them on IF the buyer wants them...HHR rear spoilers are shipped to the dealers parts dept. and they are put on as part of the new car prep.BILL

[Mike M.]

Apparently, very few on this board understand.....

how this organization really works.
It is not an arbitrary "Top-Down" organization, monarchy, or dictatorship as some believe. Unfortunately The General did provide us with the Judging Guides for absolute imperical use. We were left alone to gather the information for the judging standards for ourselves.

Roy Sinor mention in one of his seminars that the first Judging Guide was only eight pages long. All of the supporting data used are living documents, ever evolving as more information becomes available. Some of that new information has come to light through this board.

This is a "Bottom-Up" organization.
Changes are welcomed and encouraged through a process. We want to get it right.
This information in order to become exemplary must be proven and verified to the best degree. No "I Heard...", "Someone said..." or "Bubba's is different".

Typically, new information is discovered in the field by one of the members, he/she pursues it with others and will at some point include the Team Leader. If the condition/anomoly seems to be prevalent enough to warrant the notion as plausable, then further research is encouraged.

Confirmation usually comes through response surveys of known original cars, showing that the condition in question was apparent in significant numbers, proving, that a majority of the overall population also posesses that same condition or anomoly.
Through this process the Team Leader will then make the decision based on fact, to include as a change to the Judging Standard.

As an example, at the first New Orleans Regional, in 2001 I think it was, a few of us were looking at a couple of handfulls of Mid-year Trim Tags. We Were trying to identify the originals. We noticed some had specific markings and others did not.
A couple of the guys took-off with the notion, did the research, with manufacturers, suppliers and all of the accessable known original trim tags to determine that every trim tag from the first '63 to the last '67 has the same identical characteristics, period!
That information as you probably know is currently in publication.

So, if you think your car has..., do the research, gather the data and prove it!
We would be happy to see it.
H. a. N. D.

[Dennis C.]

Michael - Now, that was a very much needed...

...well expressed, thought out breath of fresh air. Thanks, DC

[Myron Sleeva]

In other words, guilty until proven innocent. *NM*

[Dennis C.]

Myron, Yep, You're catching on...

...if that's the way you choose to express it. An alternative way might be to say, OK, here is our current Judging Standard and information that has been gathered over 30+ years - if you feel it needs to be altered, please supply compelling documentation to cause it to be changed.

[Myron Sleeva]

Go with the flow

It was as a sophomore in University, that a painful lesson was learned. Challenging authority and the norm results in frustration, extra effort and diminishing returns. A very successful mentor once advised to concentrate one's efforts in areas of the greatest chance of success. Rowing against the stream ain't one.

Remember the flat earth society?

Except in this case, we are talking about cars, produced by General Motors. There was once a quote from the chairman of General Motors which went along the lines of "people think we are in the business of making cars. We are in the business of making money !
Why is it that people still think that some where along the assembly line there were "part number police'?

[Donald M.]

Re: NCRS Judging hypocrisy.

Mike, you make a convincing arguement for not having the decals on the car for judging. It would be great if someone could come up with a copy of the Warranty Labor Guide for 1978 that shows the operation and flat rate time for the decal installation. This situation can be compared to the dual quad x-ram manifold for '69 Z28s that came shipped in the trunk from the factory. No tech would even open his toolbox to install that bad boy for NVP time!

[Mark #28455]

sometimes the system works well

I was involved in the 3rd edition of the 1968-69 judging guide and had noticed several "anomalies" on my cars. These were presented and discussed and were incorporated into the judging guide. For example, I knew for a fact that not all 842 aluminum heads had plugs in the ends - my Nov 68 head did and my Feb 69 didn't - now it's in there.

There are several other changes I would still like to see, for instance, my totally unrestored late Feb 1969 car has the later clear with white letters steering interlock label that wasn't supposed to appear until several mos later. I keep bringing it up at various discussions with car owners, but now most of the cars we see are restored and when restored they were done to the then current NCRS standards, so in effect, we have changed history.

The system is not perfect, but I keep trying and so should everyone else. On the other hand, we spend so much time worrying about apparently "trivial" details that few outsiders want to join our organization. We also need to remember our roots and re-invigorate the SOCIAL side of our organization to help bring in more young/new members or eventually our organization will die off.

Mark

[Bryan L.]

Re: NCRS Judging hypocrisy.

As a 69 Z/28 fan and ex-owner (had 3) I can assure you that none of them came with the cross-ram setup in the trunk. That's an urban legend. They also didn't come with headers in the trunk although Kustom headers in Detroit made a header that was available complete with GM part # over the service counter. Hinckley will also tell you the same as he and I had this discussion at Orlando because this was also mistakenly stated during the BJ auction as a 69 Z came across. He worked in Norwood at the time.

BL

[Donald M.]

Re: NCRS Judging hypocrisy.

Bryan, You are correct! My old brain can't retain everything these days. I do remember hearing that the manifold-in-trunk was a myth. But, you get the idea re: the Pace Car decals.