re-stamping

[Joe Davies]

Hello,

I've lurked but never posted.

I was wondering when the NCRS (and corvette community at large) considers it appropriate to restamp a block?

Is there a set of acceptable criteria to be met prior to embarking upon such an endeavor? Is there a preferred methodology? Authorized vendor?

Any in put appreciated.

PS in this case the stamping was removed during a rebuild on what had been a numbers matching block, but I am also interested in t he larger issue of when to re-stamp (e.g. a numbers matching block that needs to be replaced, or a documentable car that is missing it's engine)

[Scott Marzahl]

Re: re-stamping

This a huge debated question and just start by searching the archives.

Restamping for the purpose of deceipt is of course fraud. Restamping because those numbers are missing also requires adding the "broach" marks back into the block with some type of grinder or belt sander to make it look authentic. I understand that for judging purposes, restamps are usually very detectable.

In my opinion, as long as an owner or seller fully disclose that the block has been restamped to duplicate the as original configuration it should be OK.

[Christopher R.]

Re: re-stamping

I've done a fair amount of research on this.

Once the pad has been ground, you lose the broaching marks. You can try to counterfeit them with a belt sander, but it is detectable. Local guys don't know what to look for, but experts on these cars do.

Once the numbers are ground off, you can restamp them. But the restamp characters are detectable as not originals. There are guys who have original or close to it stamping equipment. Somebody rents the equipment. Again, it'll pass local inspection. But an expert can detect it.

An expert only detects whether the characters and the pad surface are original. Not whether the information is good or matches the car. However, it's assumed that the pad was restamped for fraudulent purposes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know you're not doing that. Do you have documentation to prove it? If so, then you don't need to restamp the pad. Restamping the pad only does 2 things. It adds about $5-$10K to the value of the car and gets you a few NCRS judging points. Now why did you restamp the pad? Look at the Judging Manual. The number of points for the right stamping numbers is quite small. The other information on the block gets hyou more points, and you have that correct.

Once you've counterfeited the pad, and been found out, you've cast a cloud over the integrity of the car, and the value of the car decreases. I think it also costs some more judging points too. If you have documentation on the car, you don't need to restamp the pad. Just tell people that the numbers were ground off in a rebuild. Very common.

It's easy for an expert to tell whether the pad is a restamp. Al Grenning has hundreds if not thousands of blown up photographs of engine pads. He will have photographs of the pads a few hundred serial numbers before and after your car. Under magnification, lots of anomolies and quirks are seen over and over. You can't duplicate them all. They changed as time went on. When I saw them, it reminded me of the markings left on bullets after they've been fired from a gun. It would be very difficult to duplicate them all to make the match when placed side by side.

[Mark #28455]

Bl@@mington vs. NCRS

The NCRS clearly differentiates between counterfeit and restored engines. It is considered acceptable for judging to find a correctly dated and cast engine block and attempt to re-grain it and restamp it to match the numbers that would have been present on your original engine. You can't do this well enough yourself, get a pro.

NCRS judging is supposed to be to the standard that it "appears" as it left the factory. I'll let you in on a "secret" - I spoke with one well known restamper about 5 years ago and at that time he had restamped over 1500 Corvette engines alone! Have they all been "discovered"? I bet most have NOT. Do you honestly think all those restored L88's really somehow found their original engines at some local machine shop, past owner's garage, etc? Did you see the "last 1967 Corvette" that was recently restored? It's NO SECRET that it has a restamped engine and yet it apparently had NO DEDUCTION of points for the pad or stamping - must have been "good enough" to pass!

There are many who post here that will soon chime in about the "ethics" of restamping a block, etc but the FACT remains that the official NCRS position is that a "restoration" engine (not making a 435 HP from another car) is OK, and you apparently can get full judging points in the process. Look at the "LAST 1967" web page to see the name and address of that restamper.

My advice to all who are buying a Corvette is to buy what you like, but BE AWARE that there are MANY restamps out there, the car you are looking at may be one too, so don't believe all the original engine hype.

Mark

[mike cobine]

Re: re-stamping

It adds about $5-$10K to the value of the car and gets you a few NCRS judging points.

So will you sell me your original engine car for $5,000 more than an NOM? Oops, sorry, yours is an NOM.

To the typical C3, but try closer to $15,000 to $20,000 on the typical C2 small block. If you have a big block, it can add $30,000 and up.

Restamping will never go away until there is no value to the pad, and that won't happen.

I wish it would. It is so blatantly stupid to have two nearly identical cars, except on is original block and the other a non-original block, be so far apart on price for the simple reason of numbers stamped on a pad.

The part that is worse is anyone who was around back then, remembers that the high horse cars were the ones run to death and did blow their engines. Mysteriously, most seem to have their original engines today.

[Chas Henderson #28127]

Re: Bl@@mington vs. NCRS

I don't understand why the one 67, 12 mile L-88(?) with a restamped block is worth as much as it is, when it has a fake engine. Is there something I am missing?

Chasman

[Jack H.]

Re: Bl@@mington vs. NCRS

"it has a fake engine"

Hum, are you saying the engine is made of balsa wood? I'll bet the engine is NOT fake...it's made from real McCoy GM parts and actually starts and runs...

[Mark #28455]

you're missing the obvious

Better point, doesn't "THE ZL1" also owned by the same gentleman have a non-original engine? Who cares, it's still the only one! What about the Mona Lisa? Even if it were touched up, it would still bring top $.

You can't extrapolate the behavior of the Corvette market for more common cars from the behavior regarding a few super-rare cars with an incredible history. There were several THOUSAND 1967 435 HP cars built, so the market is willing to pay a premium for a "numbers matching" drivetrain, unlike the ZL1, or a grand sport or some other super rare one of a kind vehicle.

It's all about emotion! People buy things based on emotion which is later justified with facts . As long as there is so much emotion (excitement) for an "original" engine, the trend will continue. I feel Bloomington has done even more than NCRS to perpetuate this trend as they will not allow a "gold" for a vehicle without the "original" engine.

Like I said before, there are THOUSANDS of UNDETECTED restamped engines out there, anyone who pays $$$ for the stamp pad numbers is buying based on emotion, not reality. 25 years ago, I was working at a shop that built race cars and I don't remember a single engine that wasn't decked. There were a lot of those same cars that blew up SEVERAL engines each (ask Mr. Whittington how many went through his L88 for example). Funny how many have somehow reunited with their original engines! (We used to take original blown blocks to the scrap yard, we NEVER saved them in the back of the shop in case somebody later wanted to restore the car.)

Go figure.

Mark

[Clem Z.]

it is not the "only" ZL-1 john maher has the other

one with "papers"

[Dick W.]

Re: you're missing the obvious

The pass Bloomington "if the stamp is undetectable". Same as NCRS