C3 judging guide - when ?

[Terry F.]

68/69 door hinges, washer squirters?

Here is another odd thing about 68. The 68 door hinge is unique to 68 and early 69 only. Sort of interesting.

I have collected at least 2, possibly 3 types of washer squirters for 68. That is enough to drive a person crazy. What was up with that?

What about the location of the switches under the dash. Those were moving around in 68.

Trying to nail all this stuff down is next to impossible.

Chrome plated steel rivets or aluminum rivets on the spring tab of the distributor shield?? I have seen both on origial set-ups.

68 window cranks are unique to 68 only. Can be identified by looking at the back side at the part number and at the post insertion site.

Possibly 3 types of inside door handles in 68. 2 for sure, possibly 3. I say there are 3 types. What month were they started and stopped?

When did the upper door pull on the door panels show up on 68? Hmmm?

When did they stop using the plasitc center door for the rear compartment?

When did they start to paint the underside of the rear compartment doors black?

How late into production were spring hinges used on 68/69 for the rear compartments?

I have reason to believe that some rear pop-out windows in 68 were stamped easy-eye or soft-ray but were clear glass. They were correctly dated for the car but the glass was definitely clear. Hmmm? That's a weird one.

I have seen 3 types of door frames for 68. Some that had velcro attached at certain points that other didn't. Some that had a hole for electric window wiring and had manual windows?? The hole was plugged with a plastic plug. Some that had no hole in that same location and had manual windows.

Pop out window frame for 68. I have seen 3 different kinds. Main difference is in the corners and how they are jointed. Some pinned together, some screwed together and some had both pins and screws?? Hmmm?

Brake switch noise capacitor on 68. I have seen cars with them and with out them. My car did not have one. Hard to tell if the switch was replaced. I have collected many switches and I think only one had the capacitor on it. Need to look at some early cars and see if they were there or when they started to show up in production.

Speedometer and tach housings for 68. I have seen some that have each light hole on the back side labled with a color code. I have seen some that are not labled with a color code. I thing the early one's had no lable. It believe it was introduced later to make it easier to plug the wire harness into the right holes in the back of the dash.

Two types of vent levers used in 68. One was a riveted assembly and the other was spot welded. The chrome knobs on the levers changed but I can't remember the details on that. Had something to do with what was written on the knob I think.

Wasn't there a thing about the cross flags on the horn button not painted correctly? That is a good one.

Some cars had ashtray doors that would simply slide open all the time with vibration or excelloration. At some time in production they added a metal spring tab to the door to prevent the door from coming open on itself. It is mentioned in a tech bulletin. Find the cut off on that one.

What was the cut off on the front plastic bezel for the fiber optics? When did the pot-metal bezel show up. I have found 2 different sizes of pot-metal bezels both with the same part number on them. One is about 1/4 inch shorter than the other. Weird. That change may have taken place outside 68 production but I have not confirmed it.

Actuator canisters for the headlights?? What direction did the nipples face? Did they ever use two lefts or 2 right side canisters on a car? I think they did.

Wiper door actuator. Were the hoses rounded at 90 degrees as they attached to the vacuum nipple? I don't know? Some people think they were some say not.

Wiper door actuator boot on 68 had a straight flange on it. I am confident about that one and it didn't change untill sometime in 69. There is one thing I feel I know is true.

Just a bunch of thoughts. It is interesting but it also starts to put things into perspective. I don't know about picking this stuff that far apart. Rather just get the car on the road again and enjoy it.

Terry

I

[Reba Whittington]

Re: C3 judging guide - when ?

After reading all the posts connected with this thread, let me add something: There are two different JGs for 1968-72s. One is for 1968-69 and is now five years old. It contains several errors, and we have found new VINS or dates for some (not all) of the running changes in 1968. (As someone else mentioned, the 1968 Corvette underwent continual evolution during that year.) An update is already in the plans for this guide.

The new guide due out this summer is for 1970-72s. The present one has been in use since 1999. The judging sheets have been revised several times since then and no longer match the order of items in the manual. We have also found new data for some items.

I do not feel that any of our manuals will ever be DONE; they are all an ongoing project. NCRS came out with a new 1953 JG only two years ago.

[Roy B.]

Re: C3 judging guide - when ?

That has been my argument for many years to owners that remove a part to conform to the JM, so if that's what it takes to top flight TODAY may not be true tomorrow , so always keep the old part and take pic's.

[Roy B.]

Re: C3 judging guide - when ?

You first need to flight your Corvette to move on to the higher awards.
I would like to see people raise their hands that think a top flight Corvette of the past or other awards ( at the start of NCRS) would ever make flight today. "I don't think so!!" So this years flight awards is just good till some time goes by, then you'll join the members that came before you.

[mike cobine]

The mistake is that people follow this backwards

The JG isn't the standard, the cars are. Unless you know the car has been modified, it is the standard that one day may be reflected in the JG.

If you take items off that you believe to be original, just so it complies with the JG, then that is a mistake in my opinion.

The JG is slowly evolving to reflect what was done to the cars. However, even with all the good work that is done by a lot of hard-working people, it is still based on a reasonably small sampling. Remember, there were about 28,000 '68s and 39,000 '69s.

The JG is a guide to what is believed to be correct. As told many times, the burden of proof is with the owner. Rather than change an item, show where this item was on the car originally, or not changed, and go with it. Take pictures before you repair, paint, restore, clean. Document that it was there originally. Then the JG gets more accurate with each addition.

To simply change to what the JG has is to roll over and give up. And then people complain that the JG has mistakes.

The JG isn't the Bible. It is simply the "rulebook" for judging, however, it is alway open to change when new information is found that contradicts "thoughts" or "opinions". But you must have documentation to back it up. Saying it is on the judging field that morning isn't prove. Pictures, notes, paperwork that goes back 25 or 30 years is. Photos of undisturbed bolts or pictures of it from '68 with the owner brand new could be. Photos where you take it apart for the first time in 35 years could be.

[Reba Whittington]

Re: C3 judging guide - when ?

As an addendum to my earlier post: The update for 1968-69 is not imminent. We are simply gathering notes for it. To those of you working with the current edition, it will not obsolete in the near future.

[Roy B.]

Re: The mistake is that people follow Mike

"But you must have documentation to back it up".

That is the real problem , weather good or bad, people pay stupid prices for a screw , even pull the engine to get the right amount of paint over spray just to get some point added that in the big ( point) picture means little. It's not cheap to attend a National meet , add it all up plus $100.00 or more to enter their vett. What is the reason but to get some award to prove the condition and originality of their Corvette.
I'll bet money that %99 of them people do and will change out any part to meet the JM.(It's human nature ) I did it many years ago myself after all the trouble and cost it took! to hopefully get a top flight. ( but I kept that part for future changes that may come down the line). I'm not down grading the JM , I'm just saying that in sports a player plays by the game rules to win. NCRS is no different!!
Is that so wrong to be blunt ? Sure take pic's save parts.Some day it may be correct.
Why it's so hard to be blunt , then be criticized ( not by you ) but by some , is seen as being against NCRS. Why cant we admit what every one feels?

"But you must have documentation to back it up". Now I know you know many items dont and will never have it. Most paper work is gone.
People that feel the part is correct I think should write their team captain , this way a consciences? Can be complied and voted on , to me that's a simple way to show members NCRS is considering and "COMPILING" a data base to vote on. Most people don't get involved in articles to the restorer or even bring up the discussion worried they may be put down ( again human nature) I don't see it that way and have had the JM change on various parts, I've been wrong many times, I've been criticized and talked about but that's OK.
Do I care about NCRS YES

[Mark #28455]

really light tint

I have a few 1968 rear windows that I have accumulated for my early 1969 non-tinted window car. Some of the tinted ones were so light that I couldn't really tell the difference until they were side to side with a non-tinted one.
Mark

[John H.]

Re: 68/69 door hinges, washer squirters?

Well, I was there, and I can tell you why. In spite of a one-year program delay, the engineering wasn't done, the development program was incomplete, the coupe upper structure was a last-minute crash redesign which required us to build 100% convertibles until February, the suppliers and their tooling weren't ready, the assembly tooling wasn't up to the latest changes, Purchasing was in chaos due to the torrent of late changes, and we launched the car anyway.

Then we redesigned virtually the whole car, on the fly, during 1968 production, generating the highest volume of running changes in Corvette history, and then redesigned it again for 1969 start of production to get it right. It was NOT a fun year.

[Mark #44888]

the sum of it all

I'm a new NCRS member. I've owned my vette only 5 months. In that time, I've learned a lot from here and other bbs sites, as well as from indvidual's web sites, magazines, and talking to people. There are people on this site who have been invaluable to me for parts referencing, help, etc. For that, I think NCRS is great.

From a nearly-outsider perspective, I think some of NCRS is over-the-top. In the same light as the prices at Barret-Jackson, I think the direction NCRS is going is over-kill. I know that's a strong statement, and I don't mean any malice by it, it's just an honest opinion from one individual- me. Take it for what it's worth.

It's human nature in some, to want to perfect some specific thing. With NCRS, it's spectrum goes from rookies like me, to people spending tens of thousands of dollars and hours or more on something that was meant to be driven, but instead, is loaded in an enclosed trailer, doomed to be an investment on paper. I know the cliche "if you don't get it, you don't get it" probably applies here. I love my Corvette and I want to keep it in a near-stock form.

I have drawn the line (at least for now). I like the fact that it's mostly stock. The exceptions are: the carb is a non-original, correct replacement; the windshield is from '71; the tires are radial; water pump; fuel pump; master cylinder; and the seat belts are aftermarket. In the case of the seatbelts, I refuse to pay 6 or 8 hundred dollars for used, correct seat belts. I "got by" with $200 belts that look fantastic and actually work!

I don't know if there's any room at NCRS for guys like me, who aren't interested in going the full-mile, but at the same time, appreciate what a mostly stock Corvette is.

One final thought - a suggestion - I'd like to see the NCRS website improved. I'm not a web designer, otherwise I'd offer to help. This bbs could stand to be categorized (parts, engine help, for sale, general, etc) like other sites are. It just seems a little archaic. Video links, feeds from NCRS events would be nice. Why not have the judging manuals available online in .pdf format for members? That way, updates could be announced and specific changes could be highlighted. I know this all takes time and money, and maybe this isn't the most important thing.

Again, I hope I didn't offend anyone. I just wanted to say "hey, there's guys out there like me that love the resources here, but we can't all be top-flight material...

[Mike M.]

Re: The mistake is that people follow Mike

Roy: i'm happy to see you state what i've known all along----You care about NCRS. mike

[Terry F.]

Re: the sum of it all

It is an organization that you can do what you want with. If you are into the judging then by all means have fun letting somebody pick your car apart and tell you it is wrong or incorrect or less than what it was when it left the line or over-restored. Judges, please don't take me wrong. If and when I have my car judged, I will just sit back and have a good time. I don't take it that serious. I just like talking it up. If I am lucky it will be someone from the board.

Through NCRS I sell parts, meet people and gather information on my car. That is what I like to do. Need to get this car done soon. Been too long sitting in the garage. I will start on it again very soon.

Later, Terry

[Art A.]

Re: 68/69 door hinges, washer squirters?

I agree with John and I was also there also-------it was the Corvette production year from Hell!

The NPCs (Notice of Production Change) files for the 68 MY is at least three to 5 times the size of any other MY.

[Mark #28455]

try Sportsman class

I enjoy my Corvettes too! I use the NCRS as a reference so when I have to buy parts anyway, I can buy the most correct ones instead of wasting money on totally incorrect stuff. I finally moved close to where the Florida regional is held and have brought my car in sportsman class for the past 2 years. You can too! The sportsman section is a lot of fun too, there are plenty of people who drive their C1, C2, C3's and some have even swapped in overdrive transmissions, etc - and the NCRS judges don't even care!

Try it! I'll see you there.
Mark

[Tracy C.]

sounds like the aircraft biz... *NM*