Starter frustration

[Loren L.]

1964; fresh 327; fresh 700R4 auto; 84 GM HEI distributor - has been driven 400+ miles since reinstallation.
Car sat Fri/Sat/Sun; on Monday, the turn of the key got the dreaded starter CLICK; battery on Charger overnite; still CLICK; battery out to be checked;
Battery checks FINE; reinstall.
CLICK; remove starter (discovering that the installer of the 700R4 did NOT exactly pick the best location for the cooling lines); starter checks FINE; reinstall starter.
Turn ignition key to ON; Trouble light LIGHTS at the connection to the BAT terminal of the HEI, at the battery cable connection on the solenoid and at the BAT connection of the solenoid.
What am I missing? ANYTHING WILL BE APPRECIATED!

[Kevin M.]

Re: Starter frustration

Take a hot jumper from battery and attach it to the breaker above the driverside kick panel and see what happends. I've been fighting the same thing and that was my fix.

Kevin

[John H.]

Re: Starter frustration

Loren -

Do you have power on the small "S" terminal on the solenoid (where the purple wire is connected) with the key in "start"? Does the starter energize when you short from the large battery cable stud on the solenoid to the "S" terminal with a screwdriver?

[Timothy B.]

Re: Starter frustration

Loren,

Are your battery cables in good condition? It sounds like they may be old and have high resistance.

[KEN BUTCHER]

Re: Starter frustration

Hopefully the (R) wire is not connected to the starter now that you have HEI.

[Loren L.]

Re: Starter frustration

They are new, but thanks.

[Loren L.]

Re: Starter frustration

It operated for 400+ miles before this came up - unless, of course, I screwed something up when I re-installed the starter

[Loren L.]

Re: Starter frustration

Is this a nice way of saying that when I was laying on the black top at 103 degrees that I switched the two wires? If it is, remind me to tell you the story of my returning the T10 to its proper place - on my back, car of jack stands - winning the fight, bolting everything up, pulling my poor old body out from the car and getting ready to call it night - when I spotted the throw out bearing on the bench. I did call it a night, and advised the kids that they might not want to bother Dad for the next hour or so.

[G B.]

Long shot

The "click" noise sounds like the solenoid is trying to move the Bendix gear into the flexplate teeth, but it's not able to do that. This limited travel of the solenoid is not enough to make the connection between the battery cable terminal and the starter motor (so the motor isn't energized).

[Stephen W.]

Re: Long shot

Not sure if this will help but I would take the large terninal "lug" out that the battery cable attaches to. Clean and rotate it to the next postion for the "unworn" contact surface. Also clean the wheel it makes contact with.

[Richard S.]

Re: Long shot

Jerry,

I think you hit the nail on the head. Loren, you should try just clicking the starter until it finally engages....I did this with my 66. It ran and started fine for the next month. Replacing the solenoid should then fix the problem.

[Mike McKown]

Re: Long shot

I agree with the contact stud being worn as Steve says.

I keep seeing these posts about a remote solenoid fixing a hot "no start" problem. Some body please explain this to me. Doesn't the circuit follow the same electrical path once it leaves the remote solenoid? How is it wired?

Not Loren's problem but the several hot start problems I fixed can be summed up by saying one had too small a positive cable to the starter, one had a deteriorated, frayed cable and the third had an open field inside the starter case.

Of course I've had more than a few weak batterys that were obviously the cause.

[G B.]

Oh, okay. So that was it. *NM*

[Joe L.]

Re: Long shot

Mike------

A slave solenoid ensures that full voltage is supplied to the starter solenoid "S" terminal under all conditions. The slave solenoid is wired so that the purple wire (from the ignition switch) is transferred from the on-starter solenoid to one of the energizing terminals on the slave solenoid (these terminals are the small lug terminals on the slave solenoid). Next, battery current is supplied to one of the large lug terminals on the solenoid using a large gauge wire (like 4 gauge). Last, the other large lug on the solenoid is connected to the "S" terminal on the on-starter solenoid.

In the above set-up, the purple wire from the ignition switch simply "signals" the remote solenoid to supply full battery current to the "S" terminal on the on-starter solenoid.

Does it work? Let's put it this way: I suffered with this "hot re-start" problem for many years on my 1969. After shutting down the engine for a short while in high ambient temperatures, I never knew if the engine was going to restart. I tried EVERYTHING to solve this problem. I rebuilt starters, I replaced starters (several times), I went to a high torque starter, I rebuilt on-starter solenoids, I replaced on starter solenoids (several times), I changed to a high heat solenoid, I replaced batteries, I replaced ignition switches, I replaced battery cables, added more efficient starter solenoid shields, added starter/solenoid insulation. The problem was not solved by any of this; under the right conditions, I would still get the dreaded "groan" when I tried to restart the engine after a short shutdown. NEVER any problems, whatsoever, with a cold start, though.

Finally, I described the problem to an individual that I considered "world's best" at automotive electrical. He listened to me patiently and when I was done describing it he said "slave solenoid". He described how it functioned and how it was installed. I was HIGHLY skeptical. If anyone besides him had told me that, I would have said "thank you" and immediately dismissed the whole idea. Considering it was this fellow, I decided to try it. I installed it as he described. DELIVERANCE! I NEVER again experienced a hot re-start problem. NEVER. Not even once. And, that was over 20 years ago. Hot re-starts in Death Valley in July and August (yes, I go to Death Valley in July and August) are no problem, at all.

[Stephen W.]

Re: Long shot

Joe,you may enjoy hearing this story about a very similar problem and what some folks did to correct it. The vehicle was a 1967 Pontiac 2+2 , 428 HO 4 spd. Friend bought it new and had a problem with "hot start" when new. This was a high comp engine and after being back to the dealership many times GM got involved for warranty. Cold would start fine. Run it on a hot day and it ran fine but don't shut it off. it would not turn over at all. Starter would click and whine like it was dying. Wait 5 minutes and it would start. The GM rep authorized the replacement of the short block at 32,000 miles ( so much for numbers match)... Said something about the engine was too tight and would seize due to sudden temp rise when shut off. He didn't care what they told him cause they replaced the engine. Problem was the new engine had a very similar problem so they never corrected it. I bought the car at 68,000 miles and only half believed him when he told me. ( timing I thought) Well I stalled it in a toll booth and had to sit there for 5 minutes before that car would start.
Reading your reply makes me think you may have the answer for that old 2+2 that nobody could figure out.