Re: Weslake Chevy heads - NCRS Discussion Boards

Re: Weslake Chevy heads

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Duke W.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • January 1, 1993
    • 15610

    #16
    Re: Choose One

    A "fluid" may be either what we understand as a "liquid" or a "gas". Fluid mechanics does not distinguish between the two, although most liquids are so marginally compressible that they can be considered "incompressible", which makes analysis much simpler - closed form formulas with pencil and paper quite often.

    Not so with many fluid mechanics problems where the fluid is compressible and non-steady as in high speed engine inlet and exhaust flow. Here, not only inertia effects are important, but also the finite speed of pressure waves, and both have a big influence on flow, particulary pressure wave propagation once the fluid flow rate exceeds about one-third of sonic velocity, and a big influence at one-half sonic velocity.

    If the fluid medium is compressible, both inertia and compressiblity effects must be handled in a co-ordinated manner. You can't consider one without the other and have any hope of accurately analysing the flow. That's what modern computational fluid dynamics (CFD) tools are all about.

    I would say that the smallest, HIGHEST EFFICIENCY port commensurate with achieving a top end power BANDWIDTH objectives is a valid objective for a racing engine, but since the top end power objective in a racing engine is usually "as much as possible", you end up with the biggest ports you can fit into the available space and then work to maximize flow efficiency. That's why F1 gearboxes have ten percent ratio spacing The 90 or 95 percent power bandwidth extends only from about 17,000 to 19000, and below 15000 they fall way off the power curve.

    On a street engine, torque bandwidth is a better high level system engineering objective than peak power, so the ports have to be small enough to meet low end torque objectives, and EFFICIENT enough to make the peak power objective, which is critical for advertising as most consumers can only understand engine performance from this very limited one-dimensional perspective.

    If the LS7 heads were scaled down to fit the 4" bore size of a 302 with a mild cam they would make peak power at the same mean piston speed as LS7, which is 4200 FPM with a useable power curve to at least 4700 FPM, and these mean piston speeds correspond to 8100 and 9200 RPM on a 3" stroke engine. Of course, it could also easily meet emission standards with modern emission control technology.

    Add a racing exhaust system and valve overlap to exploit it and peak power mean piston speed will increase to the 4500-5000 FPM range, if not more, which places revs in the 9000-10000 range, or more. The problem now becomes how to make pushrod valve gear live, and it's possible because NASCAR can do it - with OEM help.

    Duke

    Comment

    • Michael H.
      Expired
      • January 29, 2008
      • 7477

      #17
      Re: Choose One

      I'm not sure where to go from here Duke, or where this is headed, but back to the original debate, I still maintain my original position on the cam profile with the later closing inlet valve for additional cyl filling at high RPM.

      Also still convinced that inlet ports that are too large have a negative effect on the efficiency of a racing engine. The numbers may be impressive but I've experienced this, 1st hand, many many times. I saw Ford do it with their tunnel port heads and Chevrolet do it with the early big block heads.

      A calculator and a lot of formulas don't seem to help the problem. If the engine RPM and engine size are limited, adding great big ports will not help.

      Comment

      • Duke W.
        Beyond Control Poster
        • January 1, 1993
        • 15610

        #18
        Re: Choose One

        A later closing inlet valve will only improve high rev VE to a point. The higher the engine's design mean piston speed, the later you can close the inlet valve beyond BDC, but at some point you actually have to close the inlet valve or the engine won't generate enough compression to start.

        I don't think F1 engine designers have problems with "too big" ports. They make them as large and short as physicially possible, then refine the contours to achieve best flow efficiency.

        Modern CFD is far beyond calculators and formulas - it's about very fine finite element models that model multidimensional non-steady flow - big number crunching computer programs.

        Duke

        Comment

        • Michael H.
          Expired
          • January 29, 2008
          • 7477

          #19
          Re: Choose One

          Ok, so you do agree with my original statement. Glad that's settled.

          Do the F1 engine intake runners and air entry systems taper as they approach the injector? I suppose they do, at least a little. I know very little about todays systems. At the incredible RPM's that they turn, I suppose they need all the air flow possible through it.

          I know as much about CFD as I know about women. Never understood either. Workin on it tho.....

          Comment

          • Duke W.
            Beyond Control Poster
            • January 1, 1993
            • 15610

            #20
            Re: Choose One

            "Ok, so you do agree with my original statement. Glad that's settled."

            To a point, but there's a limit on how far you an delay inlet valve closing before it ceases to become effective in increasing top end power, and as you delay closing it reduces low end torque, which is important on a street engine.

            I think most modern DOHC inlet runners taper slightly and then flair out at the valve bowl. Think of air flow as a lawn sprinker pattern. I has to eventually form into a cone to get past the valve until the valve is lifted about 0.25 of valve diameter where it effectivelly ceases to become and impediment to flow. Above that amount of lift the port is the limiting factor, not the valve.

            The biggest port design challenge is a pushrod engine because the port has to snake around the pushrod passages. An OHC layout can be virtually straight with optimized section geometry. It's almost a no-brainer. That's why I have to give such Kudos to GM Powertrain with how they've keep pushrod technology competitve for so long, and the LS7 is certainly a triumph of design!

            I understand CFD BETTER than I understand women. Good thing I never got married. I'd probably be broke from the kid raising and divorcse settlements instead of being a budding philanthropist.

            Yeah, me, J. D. Rockfeller, Bill Gates, Warran Buffet. I hang out with some good company.

            Duke

            Comment

            • Michael H.
              Expired
              • January 29, 2008
              • 7477

              #21
              Re: Choose One

              I agree. (yikes!) There is a point where power drops off quickly when extending the intake valve closing point, and it sure doesn't take much. A few degrees late and everything that has been gained by the late closing is lost. This definitely shows in the engineering dyno runs as valve lash was reduced or cam timing was moved back a few degrees. The power numbers dropped off quickly because the system was working backwards, forcing air back up the runner and confusing the carburetor as the wave passed the booster twice at some specific RPM. (kinda like a two cycle)

              The Camaro crossram manifold used gently tapered runners. The dimension was reduced slightly as it headed for the cyl head. I don't remember the amount or angle but a guess would be 5%? I don't remember who's idea it was either but supposedly, it helped accelerate and straighten the air mass. The majority of air movement was on the short side radius of the port floor as it neared the valve seat.

              Yes, absolutely amazing Nascar motors. And 800+ HP from 358 inches. Years ago, if we could get 25 passes at the drag strip on a race motor, we were lucky. Now, the Nascar guys run these engines at 8000-9500 RPM for 500 miles.

              The pushrod problem was partially solved in the semi hemi head with canted valves/rocker arms, just like a big block. This moved the push rod away from the inlet port wall. If I get a little time tomorrow, I'll send some pic's of the head. Very interesting port layout. Right now though, I better hit the shower or I'm going to be single again too.

              Comment

              • Tracy C.
                Expired
                • July 31, 2003
                • 2739

                #22
                Re: Choose One

                Duke,

                I know of least one charitable cause near my home (in my workshop actually) requesting an influx of immediate funding. It's the "tc's 63 restoration foundation" You can be a charter member and everything....

                eMail me for my mailing address if interested

                tc

                Comment

                Working...

                Debug Information

                Searching...Please wait.
                An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because you have logged in since the previous page was loaded.

                Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because the token has expired.

                Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                An internal error has occurred and the module cannot be displayed.
                There are no results that meet this criteria.
                Search Result for "|||"