Let the arguments begin

[Roy B.]

I was thinking of all the talk about big money BB Corvettes and what
Started it. BJ is blamed for most of it but lets look at how it started .
C1's first were salt after because of their options, rarity and got
Big money. Now most of the real restored original's are Trailered away in
Storage. Then came the C2's and at first brought good money then later
Brought big money , WHY? Paper work! To day to get big money you need paper
Work, tank sticker,serial plate, trim plate,sales paper, numbers, dates
Chalk markings and so on.
I ask you how many people today keep all the paper work when buying a new
Car?? Do you think every one in the 60's did?? But now it has become the number one selling point "Papers" then color .People saw that having papers got them big money over a Corvette not having any. So what happened next?
Now you don't see a BB corvettes for sale at 100K and up with out a tank sticker or having all the variety of paper work needed.
Is there any documentation NOT repro'ed ? If so please tell me!
Every year weather at NCRS or Bloomington they gives top awards for more BB or L88's then ever made.(and now have more paper)
So what can be done NOTHING! And don't tell me they can be detected and if so they "will" be corrected.
C1 owners have a big advantage not having to come up with papers.
Once all the C2's BB original or bogus are sold and run their course the SB may come Alive .
Yes I know this statement will bring hell on me by BB owners , but ask your self (new owners)
Am I really sure it's real.??
PS: most L88 engines were sold for boat engines.

Also if you have all the papers even if real people now wonder and if not people dont wont it.

[Douglas L.]

Re: Let the arguments begin

Older corvettes, which were built as a sports car, are an oxymoron:

The more you drive them, the less their worth.

The more you restore them, the less you drive them.

The less they were driven, the more original they are.

The more they are worth, the less you drive them.

The more you show them, the more you tell people not to touch.

The more original, (questionably) the more the worth.

The more untouched, the more the worth.

And on and on.

What do any of the above have to do with what they were built for?

Doug Lee

[Clem Z.]

explain to me what pride is there in paying

someone else $50K to $100K to restore a old corvette for you. like i have posted before to keep NCRS from adding to the paper trail that adds to the value just give the owner a plastic trophy like the do at other car shows. JMHO

[Michael H.]

Re: Let the arguments begin

Maybe I'm in the minority but I agree with some of Roy's deductions. I did the NCRS/Bloomington "show car" thing in the 70's and early 80's but not today. sold the show cars years ago. Bought the 66 big block in 1983 and have been driving it all over the country ever since. I STILL drive it a few times a week. In my opinion, there's absolutely nothing wrong with driving your unrestored car. However, I certainly see the other side of this too. Some people are just coming in where I left off 25 years ago and they enjoy the show thing. These cars mean different things to different people and I'm content with that. I respect everyone's opinion.

I haven't a shread of paperwork for my 425 HP car and I'll be the first to admit it. I'd love to know it's history but I'd rather know in my mind that "it is what it is", even without all the phony paperwork that's coming on the scene today. as far as I'm concerned, todays paperwork means almost nothing, at least to me. Too many good reproductions of every imagineable piece of documentation available today. Years ago, paperwork meant something but, unfortunately, it's value has dropped quite a bit. Some incredibly accurate reproduction tank sheets floating aroung now.

[Jeff W.]

Re: Let the arguments begin

The biggest enjoyment I get is driving my car down the road and seeing the reaction of people, especially the young kids, that have not seen one of these. Even though mine is only a 72, on the street is where they should be. I remember what my cousin told me when he found it "If I turn turn this car into a piece of garage art he would personnally kick my butt". A lot of good points Ray.

[Terry D.]

Re: Let the arguments begin

I agree with Michael, been at both ends of the hobby and certainly enjoy driving my 62 driver more than I did trailering my 62 trailer queen. But to each his own.
Terry

[Chuck R.]

Re: Well Roy

It looks to me that we have a rift as big as the Mason Dixon line going here on this topic.

On one hand, you have the Vettes that get restored and then get the wheels driven off them, and then there's the "others"

The way I see it, just owning a Corvette no matter the year is quite an accomplishment in it'self given the costs to keep theses beautys alive. Obviously, it's easier for some more than others, that's where things turn really REALLY grey.

Hey if I had a buldging pocket book, I'd be turning the country side upside down looking for that "original" set of spark plugs and oil filter too....but I don't so I can live with (should I say it Roy?) after market!

When all the glitz is wiped off Roy, it's still just a car that probably won't mean much to anyone fifty years from now unless it's in a museum or a treasured family momento, so it gets down to getting big bucks for the trailer queens.

For the folks that have or had beautiful rides that THEY have busted their backs, knuckles and sometimes pocket books too bringing back to life whether it's a trophy getter or not, you have my respect and admiration.

All the others are just beautiful cars that true middle class individuals can only look at and admire.

"Proud of my 68 driver" Chuckster 32205

[Dale S.]

Re: Well Roy

Roy, Looks like Jerry F. and I have the RARE VARIATION.(base engine, 67 C-2) Dale

[Mark K.]

What a bunch of baloney……..

1. BJ is not “responsible” for the growth in prices over the last few years. Well before BJ became a national auction C2s have been rising at a fair clip. BJ has been around in up times and down times. Why couldn’t BJ affect the prices in the down times?
2. Why did C2s eclipse C1s in value? Not because of paperwork but because they are both dramatic in a still modern way and USEABLE. Also because they represented the pinnacle of automotive performance once the emissions and safety crowd temporarily stifled performance. C1s were the best in their time, but didn’t spend nearly 20 years being perceived as the fastest cars out there like C2s did. As for relative value, it took time for the C2s to catch the C1s because C1s became rarer sooner than did C2s. C2s were used as regular cars by many people well into the 80s (long after C1s stopped being generally driven every day).
3. I'm really really tired of seeing this “more BB cars out there than ever produced” attitude. This old saw is usually thrown out by people who don’t have one. Take a look at the Restorer magazines over the past 5 years and examine how many 1967 Corvettes have been judged and reported (1967 because they have the biggest rap of being switched to BB from SB cars). Only 288 cars have been judged at the chapter level and only 213 at the regional level. Further only 52 at the national level (and many of these cars are SB cars). All the national level cars are included in the regional or chapter level meets and most of the chapter and regional cars are double counts. Additionally, many of the cars are judged in multiple years. So at best this represents about 300 individual cars over a 5 year period of time. All the cars ever judged by the NCRS and Bloomington probably don’t represent 10% of 67 production. So if people are making BB cars for value, how come we aren’t seeing hundreds of BB cars judged (the primary validation of the switch) by NCRS? It’s pretty clear that the NCRS hasn’t even seen enough 67s to represent the total number of 435s ever produced.
4. One claim I find particularly offensive because it impugns the character of the majority of NCRS membersis that there is all this “created” paperwork out there with the intent to defraud. In fact most cars out there are “known” cars and the vast majority of NCRS members that I have met are honest hard working types who are eager to discuss their cars even if it means discussing their car’s flaws. While I agree that there are occasional instances of fraudulent efforts (like the stupid 67 L88 tanker seen recently...again...on eBay) with respect to paperwork, I don’t believe for a moment that it would affect most of the cars out there.
5. Finally, I am SURE that my 67 is real. And I do have a lot of paperwork – all verified by the original owner with contemporary pictures from 1967. Are your sure your SB is real?

[Roy B.]

Re: What a bunch of baloney……..Mark

My remarks to mark and only my thoughts with great respect for your's.

1.M= BJ is not “responsible” for the growth in prices over the last few years.
1. So BJ cant get more for a Corvette then you could? Get real!

2.M= Why did C2s eclipse C1s in value? Not because of paperwork but because they are both dramatic in a still modern way and USEABLE.
2.Not because of paper work and you cant drive a C1 not USEABLE? so only a C2 is?

3.M= I'm really really tired of seeing this “more BB cars out there than ever produced” attitude.
3.I'm tired of seeing mostly BB for sale by dealers, can you count?

4.M= One claim I find particularly offensive because it impugns the character of the majority of NCRS membersis that there is all this “created” paperwork out there with the intent to defraud
4.All this “Created” paperwork" I must be the only one that knows it? Never said NCRS members were crooks.

M=While I agree that there are occasional instances of fraudulent efforts (like the stupid 67 L88 tanker seen recently...again...on eBay) with respect to paperwork, I don’t believe for a moment that it would affect most of the cars out there.

With respect to paperwork, you don't believe for a moment that it would affect most of the cars out there. (you do live on earth)

M=I am SURE that my 67 is real
I'm sure your right and we are all happy for you!

Because I started this mess , I feel I should responed and I realy do respect your opinion Mark ,BUT this is mine too, should I say SORRY???.

[Jim W.]

Re: What a bunch of baloney……..Mark

Well stated! Jim Weeks - Member #2978

[Chuck S.]

Everyone Staying On Their Fiber One??!!...

Ya' gotta quit practicing your acupuncture, Roy...I think you hit a nerve!