First Judging

[69 big block]

I am a NCRS member (33313) and a member of the DVCC (Delaware Valley Corvette Club). I took my 1969 fathom green, big-block (L-36) roadster to Eatontown, NJ this past Sunday to be judged. I am going to digress for a few minutes to set the stage.

I purchased the car last October from a person in San Jose, CA. I found it on the internet after searching for about six (6) weeks. I wanted a big-block car, a convertible and a fairly nice condition, mostly original 1968-1970. I looked at a roll(24 exposures) of 35mm pictures and a 15 minute VCR tape and sent a certified check overnight to the owner with the understanding that he would also overnight the title and books back to me. He arranged for the shipper to contact me and eleven(11) days later my baby arrived. It was EXACTLY as discussed and I was not disappointed. The following day I flew to San Jose, CA to vacation and meet the previous owner.

This is my fourth Corvette and my choice was either to spend around $42,000 on a 1998 Corvette convertible (that would sit in my garage and depreciate over the winter months) or spend about $30,000 on an older Corvette that I would enjoy ( and also sit in my garage over the winter months) and watch appreciate (hopefully). I chose the latter.

Now with all that said.

I joined the two organizations that I mentioned earlier and started to get serious about my investment. I heard and read about NCRS "top flights" and judging events and I decided that I would see what this 1969 would do first time out. I spent about $1000 on some cosmetics and took the 1-1/2 hour drive in 95+ temperatures to Eatontown, NJ. (A special "thank you" to all personnel involved, THE judges and to "Ed" and "Vito")

Being ignorant of NCRS rules, points and judging criteria, I purchased the "1968-69 Corvette Technical Information Manual & Judging Guide". I must admit that after reading it, my stomach felt ill. Things like key "knockouts", license plate screws and their bag and correct tire valve caps had me very upset. But I tried to focus on the big picture and honestly analyzed my car and felt that if I got a "Second Flight" I would be very happy. Well, I am very pleased and now want to make this classic a "Top Flight".

Now the questions.

Is is safe to assume that my judging sheets and results will be mailed to me?

Is this events' results kept on file by the NCRS? If yes, will the judges in August at Carlisle focus on the deficiencies to see that they were corrected?

Is the judging at a regional meet (August/Carlisle) more stringent than a chapter meet (May/Eatontown)?

Am I correct in calculating (without my results) that if I placed "Second Flight" with the lowest possible score (85) and want to achieve the lowest possible "Top Flight" score (94) that the MAXIMUM points I must pickup is 405?

I do know that I lost major points for items like wrong master cylinder, wrong carb, wrong radiator, wrong tires, wrong trim rings, wrong expansion tank cap, wrong oil filler cap, wrong intake manifold bolts, wrong hoses and belts, wrong clamps, wrong oil filter, wrong battery, wrong mufflers, missing exhaust tip clamps, missing spare tire lock & cover, missing positraction decal, missing compartment tray, non-lacquer paint finish, non-dated softtop, and general minor point deductions for cleanliness all throughout the car. Without repainting the car and not replacing the radiator or carb, I am quesstimating that I might be able to correct most deficiencies for about $1200 - $1500 and a long weekend with soap, water, polish and a soft toothbrush. From what I mentioned, does this sound realistic?

Anyway, thanks for hanging in there and reading this l-o-n-g posting. Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated.

[Chuck B.]

Re: First Judging *TL*

First off CONGRATS on your Second Flight, thats real good for your first time out. You should receive your score sheets in about 2 weeks. Once you reveive them review them carefully on try to correct the area were you can pick up the most points for the least amount of money. Your score ONLY will be on file at NCRS. The next time your car will be judged, it will be judged as a new car. Carlisle regional meet will have probably more expierenced judges, so consequently the judging may be in your mind mor stringent. Yes the difference between second and Top Flight will be 405 points. Please feel free to contact me if I can be of further assistance. Chuck Berge

[Terry M.]

Re: First Judging *TL*

Boy it is always nice to have another big block in NCRS, especially one that posts to the NDB . Seriously it would be nice to have a name to address you by. We really will not hold your questions against you.

Now to your questions:

Yes your judging sheets will be returned to you. Depending on how busy the judging chairman is (this is a volunteer position) that can take up to two months, but one would hope for sooner.

NCRS keeps only the VIN number, your name, the raw score (no driving points) and final score (with driving points).

The score sheets you get back are the only copy there is, so the judges at any future event will have no idea how your car scored, or even if it was judged previously (unless some of them are the same people and they have good memories). Even in that case, we judge each car as it is presented and it stands on its own at that meet. That is why there is a disclaimer in the Judging Reference Manual (a good book to have in addition to the ones you mentioned) that states each car may score better or worse at each event. You will have the only reference to its previous judging.

The judging at a regional is more stringent in the sense that we expect the judges at a regional to be a little more skilled and they may find some items that the chapter judges missed. This however is not always the case and increasingly Chapter judges are becoming more skilled. The point assignments for the same deviations (a much better word than wrong) should, on the whole, be not much more at a regional than a chapter.

Your math is correct: For 9% increase in final score you will need 405 raw points.

Some suggestions: Your description of parts as "wrong" leaves a lot to be desired by way of communicating information. There is no right and wrong - you now are dealing in shades of gray. You will have to assess what wrong means and in what way your parts deviated from the original. You will then need to determine how the reproductions deviate from the original and whether you will gain any points by changing parts. Yes you can loose ground by changing to a part that has more deviations than the part you now have. Just throwing a set amount of money at the car (or placing it in the hands of someone else to make these judgements) is not the best course of action.

You don't say how "wrong" your battery was or oil filter. If you received total deduction for non-Delco items you can pick up a bunch of points for little coin by getting current Delco replacements. No need to spend major dinero for reproductions for the last few points unless you are on a real mission. Repop oil filter is $20 or so (vs. as little as $2.50 on sale for current replacement blue unit) - repro battery will depend on which style you need and is not a 100% item in either case. Current Delco should gain you 10% originality points and all condition points. Safest if you can find one with only top terminal or only side terminal as your car serial number dictates. Some judges will not give 10% originality for DT [dual terminal] batteries - others will because it says Delco. This is not exact science.

You ought to be able to get a real radiator cap for $40-$50. I suggest you avoid reproductions here, as cost difference is not that great for reconditioned original.

Hoses and belts and clamps should be within your budget, but again your description as to "wrong" leaves a lot to be desired. Accuracy of reproductions will depend on engine horsepower and options for both hoses and belts.

I hope you took advantage of the extra 10 points for a NCRS decal, battery shut off and fire extinguisher.

Also if you lost any operations points - fix what was not working. This is another area to gain what is usually inexpensive points. Sounds like you drove your car to the meet - another place to gain inexpensive points.

This is too long now, but should give you some place to start once your score sheets come back.

Welcome to NCRS. Go slowly and do a lot of research. Research is a lot less expensive than misapplied "restoration."

Terry

[Jack H.]

ATTABOY!

It's great to hear you got 'baby' and went off to have 'er judged before lifting a finger/spending a dime! Also, nice to hear you started a support library for your classic Corvette that included NCRS literature. Welcome to the club!

Not so nice to hear your stomach 'turned' and the words 'wrong' and 'right' used in conjunction with judging. I prefer 'recognized factory correct/original' vs. 'right'. Why? There's no monopoly on righteousness. The car's your assest and you should do with it as you please and enjoy it as you wish. The factory made mistakes, had recall campaigns and 'improved' parts as well as assembly processes....

As a judge and an owner, I have made intentional deviations from NCRS standards here/there but it was with knowledge and aforethought. So, when a judge tells me this/that isn't 'right' he'd best know darn well what he's talking about because right/wrong implies a judgement call.... I'm glad to see Terry echoed this theme!!!

Yeah, 'known factory original' is probably a better term or something along the lines of 'our rules require' or 'current views are'....

Also, both Chuck and Terry have done a great job of explaining the 'fresh sheet' philosophy in NCRS judging -- each time the car's shown it's a new day, there is no memory, we encourage owners to improve their cars, and the club is by members for members. The last means you grant judges a special role (up close inspection) with your car and they, in turn, owe you a special obligation of due diligence (explainations are private between them and you). So, only the net results of your judging(s) are archieved and details are your property alone. Brings up why Terry mentioned the NCRS Judging Reference Manual in addition to the Judging Guide for your library.

Last, consider the economics of restoration. Here's my take. Suppose your car in 100% Flight score condition would net $45,000 at sale. We have a 4500 judging point scale. That means, ON AVERAGE, each judging point is worth $10. When you look at 'improving' in this/that area, look in the economics mirror -- can you get the job for $10/point? If it costs $100 or $200 for that widget, maybe you don't want it or you should raise your sights to the MoE (Mark Of Excellence) level beyond Flight to cost justify.

Gasoline is CHEAP. You can affect your Flight score by driving the car (bonus milage driven points since you brave wear/tear and risk loss/damage) and that may be the more economic way to earn your award. Uncle Jack's rule:

If you're solid/middle of a given Flight rung, you can reach the next by doing NOTHING other than jumping into the car, driving to an NCRS meet, enjoying your time in the sun/wind behind the wheel and use the milage driven credits to give you the boost! So, you don't have to rip the lining out of your wallet to have fun and gain recognition at NCRS.... unless you want to go for the gold and shoot at the highest Award (MoE) category in Corvettedom.

[Tom B.]

Re: First Judging

69 big block,

I think Terry and Chuck gave you very good information from the Judging standpoint already.

But I can't help but notice something "inconsistant" (for lack of a better term) with your purchase, procedure, and reasoning. Granted, we all have our personalized Corvette interests, and my intention is not to deflate any of your interest or enthusiasm. I do want to provide constructive information.

I would think that you found a genuinely honest seller for the 69 you purchased and were able to recognize him as such. But considering the way you described your purchase, a clever and deceptive seller could have just as easily left you with even less of something that you are looking at as an "investment". I think the inconsistancy I'm perceiving was first, that everything arrived exactly as described and you weren't disappointed. But second, upon learning of the vast technicalities of ORIGINALITY (not necessarily the NCRS rules, points, and judging criteria) you made your realization (stomach felt ill).

From that point I think having the car judged before you made any major changes has been a good decision. I'm not sure what is "exactly" not-correct with the list of parts and components that you've listed but think that you should continue to take your time and review your judging information once you receive it. Since you mentioned your goal was to improve the car to a Top Flight, then compare your point deductions to what will add the most points for improvement. In other words, prioritize your list. Also, you may find if you want to replace or improve everything on your list, it may very well be more than the $1200 - $1500 that you think. You'll really only be able to tell once you have put the price to each individual item as well as if it needs to truely be an original piece or just a replacement / reproduction. Hope this has helped. TBarr #24014

[Richard T.]

Re: First Judging

Congrats on your 2nd flight first time out with the car. My 67 was almost directly in front of you (Green BB coupe) and I looked at your car a couple of times during the day. I spoke to Ed Lepelis late Sunday and he's trying to have all the judging sheets mailed out this week so I'm sure you will see them soon. Wasn't Sunday a nice cool breezy day ? Yea ! 95 and humid in the shade. It was a real nice event and all the Central Jersey Chapter members should be congratulated.

Rich #2276

[69 big block (Gregg Cibik)]

Re: First Judging

Thank you - Chuck, Terry, Jack, Tom and Rich for your comments, insights and advice. I DO appreciate everything you all mentioned.

I did not mean to offend anyone with my word of "wrong" and stating that my stomach felt ill. By wrong, I now know that stating "not factory original" or "not original reproduction" would be a better description.

Yes, I could have been hurt big time by the San Jose, CA seller but I did luck out. Originally I just wanted the car to be a play thing (toy) and not have it judged but----- after owning three (3) previous Corvettes, I guess I have "the bug".

After perusing the NCRS rules and regulations I have come to understand that someone MUST set the "standard" and that the "standard" MUST be fair, accurate and complete. To this end I applaud the NCRS and it is my desire to follow their recommendations to achieve the next level.

All of you guys have been an inspiration to me and I thank you all, again. See you in August.

Gregg Cibik (#33313)