I'm look at a 68 Big Block tri power that is for sale. The car basically has no documentation. The block is a CE block that is date coded Oct 69. Car has aluminum heads. The tank sticker is gone because the tank was rusty and replaced in 1985. I am worried about buying this car because I don't really know if its original. I have a couple questions that I would like answered. 1)Is there any way I can find out how this car was originally optioned since it has a CE block? 2) Assuming it is original and has a CE block, how much does this devalue the car and how desireable is it in the market. I am worried about putting money into something that will not be a good investiment. 3) As I said above the car is a 68. I know the 68's were not that popular several years ago for various reasons. Are the 68's still considered an undesireable year? Thanks for your help.
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Re: CE Blocks and Value of Vette
Without a tank sticker or protect-o-plate, there is no way to show conclusively how the car was originally equipped. CE blocks and no documentation don't really hurt a car's value, as much as original engine and docs magnify it.
Might be a great way to get into a tri-power car for less money, and you might get lucky if you can track down previous owners, and get affidavits or even documentation...the tank sticker or POP could easily double the cars value.
One other slight hope...if the trans is original, and has the partial VIN, the type MIGHT give some clues as to original motor (I'm thinking if M22, would suggest hipo engine). Also, if factory aluminum heads with proper/consistent date codes, could possibly be an L89.
A documented car will always be the better investment (like art, the provenance)...but a tripower chrome bumper car will always be a desireable commodity in the marketplace, even without docs.
'68s are still lagging '69s, and perhaps 70-72 in the marketplace.
Steve -
Re: CE Blocks and Value of Vette
For me, it would all depend on the seller's pricing...if he's willing to ask a reasonable price, maybe. Too many owners of old ragged out, non-original Corvettes think they can get the same money as a restored car.
The first C3 Corvette I looked at was a 69 L71 convertible, low mileage, original owner, both tops, with the rare dual-plate clutch option. The car was setting on original ARE Torque Thrust D wheels, but he still had the originals, and they came with the car.
It was fully documented from Day 1...he was the selling dealer's son. The fly in the ointment was that early in the car's life, Junior had a boisterous evening, and the original engine ate a valve. Even though the original engine was repairable, Junior insisted on a brand new CE engine. He had all the paper work on the replacement.
He was asking top dollar, and I offered him 30% less...he was insulted. I walked away from the deal, and for me, at that time, it was the right decision. Knowing what I now know, I would have come to terms with him and bought the car.
But as a newbie, getting my info out of The Corvette Black Book, and not knowing the value (or devalue) of the car, laying out a bunch of money would have been extremely risky. Probably just as well I passed on the deal...Junior later went to prison for drug money laundering.Comment
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Re: CE Blocks and Value of Vette
There are no archived factory records for cars of that era and 'proof' of factory original configuration is done one of several ways:
(1) 'Forensically' by experts looking at telltale components that indicate factory original configuration.
(2) Prior owner history research with affidavits and any paper work those who owned the car before might have retained.
(3) From a copy of the tank sticker.
Each method has its drawback(s).
(1) If the car was raced/wrecked or 'put together' by savvy restorers, the telltale components that exist today may NOT be those that originally shipped with the car from the factory.
(2) Generally a long/tedious ordeal often frustrated with 'dead end' leads. Plus, if one of the prior owners you find was one who changed the car's configuration, can you trust his statement(s)?
(3) While accepted by NCRS as 'proof' of a car's factory original configuration, there is no VIN number on a tank sticker. So, who's to say the tank the sticker came from was actually original to the car???
Last, I wouldn't say '68 Corvettes are 'undesirable' but the truth is this was a 'first of' model year for the body style and there were MANY running changes. That means finding correct/original parts to execute a restoration is often expensive, time consuming and frustrating. If you like that particular body style, keep in mind the '69 cars were almost identical and they manufactured them for 1.5 years making them more plentiful...Comment
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Re: CE Blocks and Value of Vette
Jack,
In my addmittedly limited experience, at least the '69 original tank stickers have the last 3 and last 4 digits of the VIN hand-written on them.
I agree that the tank sticker is less than complete documentation because these numbers are not printed.
Now, if he can find the POP from a previous owner, he might hit the big time.
SteveComment
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Re: CE Blocks and Value of Vette
Steve,
Your statement is partially true in some circumstances. If the last three digits of the cars vin is under 500, it could be the same as the handwritten numbers on the Corvette Order Copy.
Ernie,
Here's an example of value concerning a documented CE replacement cylinder case. An Ontario orange '71 LS6 Corvette was used as a magazine test car, in one of the magazines test, this cars original engine was ruined by the magazines test driver in the final drag strip run. The car was returned to GM and a warranty replacement cylinder case was installed. This car was for sale at 150K, it has had offers of 100K. The difference in price is most likely the non original Tonawanda assembled/stamped cylinder case the car left with at the St. Louis plant in 1971.Comment
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Re: CE Blocks and Value of Vette
Steve, not sure I agree that a Tank Sticker or POP will double a cars value? Increase it, sure, but double, not so sure.Comment
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Exactly right, Warren, my mistake
as you mentioned, the (typically larger) "grease pencil" 3-digit derivative cycles to 500. The 4-digit (looks like pencil) is usually the last 4. Thanks for catching this.
SteveComment
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trans of little help
The 1968 Muncie did NOT have a letter code for M20 vs M21 vs M22, so you can swap whatever gears you want into the trans and nobody can tell. Only the M22 had a drain plug on the side (2 plugs total) but anybody can add that easily. The M22 was L88 only.
The trans codes didn't start until the 1969 model year about the end of October 1968.
MarkComment
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SAE ratings on the "Manufacturer's Statement
Of Origin To A Motor Vehicle"
I have the above document for one of my '68's.
Car was originally sold in North Carolina.
This document lists the following on the line below the vin;
H.P. (SAE) 57.8
How important is this document when trying to verify a cars original engine/hp configuration when the original engine is long gone?
Thanks,
G.Comment
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Re: SAE ratings on the "Manufacturer's Statement
Some old titles had taxable horsepower listed and you can sometimes use that to verify. However, my '68 is in error as it lists 51 hp. Now before you say it is right and the car is wrong, I have owned the car since '77, all parts were in place (not a made car), and I have the original tank sticker.Comment
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Re: CE Blocks and Value of Vette
I always found it odd that people will pay much more for a '69 of which there were about 10,000 more built, than a '68. The reason I have heard most often is the "poor quality, bad workmanship" and so on that was reported in the early magazines.
I'm always amazed at how people are sheep.Comment
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Re: SAE ratings on the "Manufacturer's Statement
I have "portions" of the tank sticker. Have nice photo copies of the original title, have talked to the original owner. The selling dealership has sold, and I have not been able to further information as hoped.
Thanks,
G.Comment
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