Lacquer & stamp pads; Philosophy 101 (again)

[Dale Pearman]

Re: Cincinnati Milling Machine Co.

SINCERE thanks for your input Terry. I've learned a bunch. From now on it's BROACH in my vocabulary. This discussion board is FANTASTIC. We're all getting a free education!

Varooom.


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[Dale Pearman]

Re: The skinny...from ex-Machinist

Hey, you're giving away all the secrets! I'll complete the job: Lightly polish the pad surface and then, with a straight edge parallel to the crankshaft, use an exacto knife to scratch in a few "artistic" broach marks!

Varooom!


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[Dale Pearman]

This is a powerful thread!

Wow! I have LEARNED a ton from this thread. Thanks VERY much to all who have contributed.

Varooom


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[Bob Dransman]

Re: CMMCo.: Transfer Lines: THE ANSWER

In 1966 my current boss and I started work at Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. as Trainees. We both recall the following. During that first year we were both assigned to Dept. 1100 -- Special Machine Assembly. We were both involved in building a series of machines for GM CANADA called "Transfer Lines". These machines were fed rough-machined V8 engine castings and spit out finish-machined engine blocks. The rough machining included rough MILLING of items 1 through 3 below, with a few thousandths stock remaining for the BROACH..

The machines were about 100 feet long (as we recall), and contained a series of machining stations. They contained 8 miles of wire per machine. The machining they performed included:

FINISH BROACH (simultaneous) OF:

1) Oil pan surface

2) Head surface

3) Intake manifold surface BORING OF:

4) Cylinders

5) Lifter bores

6) Miscellaneous bores (incl. distributor, oil filter, crankcase vent, etc.) OTHER:

7) Drilling (incl. dipstick, all tapped holes, oil passages, etc.)

Tapping (head bolts, intake manifold bolts, motor mounts, oil pan, etc.)

We don't recall the sequence of operations. We don't recall if the cam and crank bores were done on or prior to the Transfer Line. We do recall that the crank bore was used for location on a large aligning bar integral to the machine, ensuring parallelism to the broached surfaces. We don't believe finish honing was done on the machine. We don't remember if the pads for the motor mounts were simultaneously broached or if they were milled on the Transfer Line, or if they were done prior to the Transfer Line, during rough milling.

Transfer Lines for U.S. operations (not Canada) almost certainly existed. They were too efficient to have been ignored since there was NO SETUP TIME between operations. A block could be completely and automatically machined in about 10 minutes (as we recall). The machines themselves may have been at Flint, or they may have been at an intermediate location between the foundry and Flint. (They may even have been at the foundry, or the castings may have been shipped to Canada for machining!)

I've already contacted some of my past associates at Cincinnati Machine to see if they can get pictures, or maybe even 16mm film of the machine in operation. I also have asked for a list of potential customers, to try to determine where these machines were located within GM. We'll see what turns up.

Bob D.

[Jerry Clark]

Re: CMMCo.: Transfer Lines: THE ANSWER

Hi Bob:

I have been told that "ATTABOYS" are unnecessary but what the Hell, "ATTABOY". This is the research / documentation that has enabled many restorers, ( automobiles, airplanes, ships, whatever ) to perform their mission in the state of the art manner most aspire to.

jer

[Everett Ogilvie]

Re: Magnaflux? & P-38 Restoration / Original Air..

Juliet, I have not done magnaflux to a block, but I did the acid treatment technique to raise removed numbers. I learned about it from a Detective Forensics Dept. Short story is that areas that are stamped are compressed (more dense) and the acid etch characteristics are different for areas of different density. I successfully did this to verify the numbers on the stamp pad of one of my cars. I do not think this acid treatment would reveal much about the broach marks, as they are carved rather than impacted.

Original air in P38 tires eh? Is this the ice cap buried plane? Aren't there a whole bunch of planes in the ice somewhere?

Back to my original post; I don't see a functional difference in fooling judges with buffing modern paint to make it look like lacquer, and restoring a stamp pad to make it look original. As one post said, the money side of it is probably different. As long as "original engine" causes these cars to sell for "double" the price of "replaced engine", the stamp pad will remain a controversy.

[George Daina]

Time for me to trample on some feet and toes.....

Been reading the thread, and it is clear to me that some of you good folks still can't see the big picture, nor the small one, in fact, you guys don't seem to see at all. Stmaping the original block is ok, but a crime to restamp a different block. A block is one part of many that goes into the production of the Corvette. If replacing a restamped block is fraud, then why is it ok to replace a windshield with a new date code, or a sparkplug, or recover the seats, or put in new carpeting? Seems to me these items are just as important in the assembly of the car as is the motor. Now, the guys who are cryin' the blues about restamped replacement blocks, you should be cryin' the same blues when the car is repainted. The dgree of change is equal, in fact, when you replace any part with another, the degree of change is equal.

Time to back away folks, and reflect on what you're whiining and moaning about, and if you find that your whinning has creedence, then whine about a replacement bumper, new carpeting, new weatherstipping, new this, new that.

Our jobs are to keep the cars on the road, whether they are tailer queens or drivers, and it is up to us to use any and all resources available to us to make our jobs easier.

Please, no more whining about restamp blocks. If the original is logng gone with a rod though its' side, what ya gonna do? Ya gonna park it and look at it?

[Juliet P.]

I said: "For Research Purposes"

Larry, I think you missed this part of my post:

"Might it be possible to check out some of these questionable types of marks etc? Not at a meet, but perhaps for research purposes? "

I wasn't suggesting that NCRS incorporates that as part of the judging process. No way! But I still think it would be neat to apply some of the modern technology to a range of engines and see what turns up. It might lend some interesting insight. ...something about the EDUCATION part of the NCRS charter comes to mind....

Oh and George, I'm not sure about others, but I can see the big as well as the microscopic picture. If I were to plunk down umpteen $$$ for some really Rare Corvette I probably would want to get the block magnafluxed (or equivalent) to increase my confidence in my decision that I'm getting what I paid for. Of course until I win the lottery this is something of a mute point.

~Juliet


Juliet's 1970 Corvette

[Everett Ogilvie]

Re: Time for me to trample on some feet and toes..

Stirred it up this time, didn't I George? I pretty much agree; replacing part A, is about the same as replacing part B, is about the same as using modern paint and slyly making it look like old lacquer - Why, that's downright misleading to our judges! All these things are part of restoration, to get the correct look. Having said that, I have to add that my big block has the original motor and I love it that way. And I admit I probably would not have paid price X if it were a replacement block. I probably would have paid 1/2 or 2/3 of price X. The stigma and sacred status of "The Original Engine" will probably always be around, tied to the money. Maybe when all the remaining original engines are worn out or blown up, replacement blocks won't be thought of any differently than just another replaced/restored part.

[Tom B.]

Re: Time for me to trample on some feet and toes..

Everett,

That's an interesting philosophy, "when all the original engines are gone". There's a good chance we'll never know when they've all bitten-the-dust. It'll probably be just like the 67 L88 scenario, there'll be more "original" engine Corvettes in the future than there are now, or possibly were. TBarr #24014

[Everett Ogilvie]

Re: Time for me to trample on some feet and toes..

You're right Tom. What was I thinking? Of course as time moves on, there will be more original engines (and probably all of them big blocks) than there ever were to begin with. They proliferate like rabbits. Maybe if we reach the point someday where our best Master Judges cannot tell the original pads from the restored pads, we will have done our job well, with our standards and building to those standards. (but I will still have my Bowtie car...)

[Patrick T.]

Stirring The Pot....

Everett, you seem pretty adept at keeping the pot stirred, but I got of lot of usefull information out of the pot.

My own interest in this free for all goes back a couple years ago when I owned a 2500 hour frame off red '57, which was a consistant 1st place showcar.(Not NCRS) Everything was correctly restored except for the new engine and transmission. It was gorgeous, and sometimes I still miss it.

But for all the work, time and money I had in the car, when I entered it in a show, these NCRS guys would come around and eyeball it, whisper to each other, and tell me I had a beautiful car; "too bad it has the incorrect drivetrain". This really grated my nerves and after a few years of hearing some of the stuff which is said below, I finally sold it a modest profit.

Next time I said, the Corvette I buy WILL have the correct matching numbers etc. etc. And looking back, I have never regretted my decision. Thanks, Patrick

[lp]

Re: I agree, keep restoring the vin pads & paint j

Lacquer is emphatically NOT "EPA illegal toxic substances". It is EPA legal nationwide. It may well be restricted for spraying by commercial operations in your city/county by your local air pollution control board, but even this may not restrict you from spraying it in limited amounts and/or for non-commercial purposes. The EPA VOC National Rule specifically insures it's legality. Moreover it specifically addresses lacquer's use for restoration applications. In previous posts I explained this in great detail. I just don't want anyone to somehow feel they are being an 'environmental felon' when in fact the federal government (EPA) has guaranteed by law their RIGHT to something.

Also there were probably as many different textures and levels of DOI in 60's Corvette OEM lacquer as there were painters on the line. It was a case where all were not identical because of the human element involved in the sanding and buffing. This was of course absent in other model lines (read metal) where reflow lacquer was used resulting in a much more consistent finish car-to-car.

[Bryan L.]

Re: Stirring The Pot....

This has has been a most interesting thread since it has addressed 2 of the things that I am going to have to decide on my 67. It is an original big blick car, but the OM is long gone. I have purchased a correctly dated #351 block, which has 1 sleeve and has been decked. I will in all probability stamp it. I hope I never have to sell it, but if I did I would never present it as being an original motor car.

Bryan

[Dale Pearman]

Re: CMMCo.: Transfer Lines: THE ANSWER

Thanks Bob. I agree with Jerry. You've done us all a great service. I've learned to say, "BROACH".

Varooom!


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