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Like to get opinions on what the % difference would be in value between a numbers matching drivetrain, and one where the block is correct code but stamped with different VIN #.
I think you need to be more specific about what the 40-50% means. For example, if you mean that a "matching" number car is 50% HIGHER than the "non-matching" car then a $20,000 non-matching value will mean a $30,000 matching value. But if on the other hand you mean that a "non-matching" car is 50% LOWER than the "matching" car, then the same $30,000 value for the matching car will mean a $15,000 value for the "non-matching" car. Note the significant difference for the "non-matching" car.
1967 L71 Silver/Black Coupe - Unrestored/Original Paint, Top Flight at 1998 Regional in Ontario, not judged since
1995 Red/Red ZR-1 - Top Flight back in 2010 Michigan Chapter meet
In my opinon, depending on the car, it can be 30-50% greater value for "Matching Numbers". For me, Matching Numbers is of primary importance, but so are "docs" of some sort, either the Tank Sticker, original window sticker or POP, owner history is a plus.
It still comes down to what the seller will sell for and the buyer will buy for.
As per what was asked if the there were 2 cars 1 matching motor and 1 not matching and all other items the same I would have to say 40-50% less for the non-matching. On an low production car and high performace the engine being correct is the largest part of the cars value as a 1 item being incorrect. Paul
My first Question would be is it a real LT-1 with paperwork?
Second is the block now in the car dated before the build date of the body?
Third is it a real 70 LT-1 block stamped as such with the correct code?
Foruth by correct code do you mean casting number of block?
If all of the above are correct and only the VIN on the block is not original the value would be much better than if all the above items are incorrect.
If the frame,body,and interior were all equal I would say the 40% less is a good estimate that I might pay. Each item I stated above if correct for the car would add value if I was a buyer.
A Lt-1 with a block not original to the car will always be worth less to
NCRS buyers but to the person who don't care and has no idea what he is buying may at an auction pay more than a real one is worth if the wife wants it and he has oil wells pumping.
Lyle
I would agree with Lyle but for me on an LT-1 the engine is the highest cost item for a 70-72 because most of the time most of the other engine parts Carb, manifolds, smog, etc. are incorrect also that makes it very hard to get the car up judging standard. Paul
What is stamped on the blocks pad on the passenger side front? In NCRS judging the stamping on the front of the block can be wrong but having the correct block casting and correct date for the casting of the block for the build date of the car will give you points. The 70 Corvette was the last year for GM's 5 year or 50,000 mile warranty. This 70 Corvette could of had a engine replacement under GM's warranty. The LT-1 with 11:1 compression partial engine was available from GM for many years with the solid lifter camshaft installed under part #3966921. The PP3 GM Performance Parts book of the late 80's perhaps 1990 still listed the 70 type LT-1 partial engine availabilty. This PP3 parts book also listed the LT-1/L-82 9:1 compression ratio partial engine as well but without camshaft. This printing of the book also listed a new 350 smallblock engine available, the ZZZ crate engine that has evolved to the present ZZ4. The ZZZ engine used a forged one piece rear seal crankshaft and the same "pink rods" that was used in the LT-1 engine.
The most important numbers are the block numbers. After that, my opinion the money is wasted. I say that because I believe that most nice corvettes attrack emotional buyers and 99% of them know very little about the matching numbers thing except for the block VIN number. They may ask you if it is matching numbers but what can you say?? If you don't know a cars history to the original buyer you are out of luck. I don't think anyone that knows these cars would give a written guarantee that a particular engine is original to the car from the factory. The most important thing is appearance and driveability. Beyond that, investing more money in a car is very wasted. Just my humble opinion though. I would love to have a 70 lt1 by the way. I think those are going to rocket in value in the next coming years. Terry
I think the more desirable and rare options the car has determines how much less it would be worth. If you compare apples to apples, that is, two cars with equal options, and an equal degree of restoration, I'd say the one with an incorrect vin# would be worth 25% less. However, a car with quite a few hard to find options with only the vin# incorrect, can have substantial value. Especially if you consider how many cars described as "matching numbers" may not have the original block anyway. I think the important thing is knowing exactly what you're buying.
"I don't think anyone that knows these cars would give a written guarantee that a particular engine is original to the car from the factory."
Why not? I think that in many cases of unrestored cars it can be very obvious that a block hasn't ever left an engine bay. I'd give anyone a written guarantee that both of my cars still have their original engines. The 71 I removed myself in 1995 for its first removal and have no doubts it was always there since June of 71. For my 72, it has never left the engine compartment and that is obvious to anyone.
Once restored, and passed through some owners, then all bets are off for many cars.
But, realize that Al Grenning is now getting into the business of giving written guarantees that an engine is, in fact, original to a car.
Patrick
Vice-Chairman (West), Michigan Chapter NCRS
71 "deer modified" coupe
72 5-Star Bowtie / Duntov coupe. https://www.flickr.com/photos/124695...57649252735124
2008 coupe
Available stickers: Engine suffix code, exhaust tips & mufflers, shocks, AIR diverter valve broadcast code.
I recently purchased a '70 Coupe minus its engine and some other parts for a low price. The car is suppose to be an LT-1, but no documentation came with the car. I believe it is an LT-1 car because of 6,500 redline tach, a single fuel line, holes for the TI box, etc; however, I can't be 100% sure. With the evidence at hand though, I believe that it should be restored to its original configuration as a LT-1 instead of a 300 HP or 350 HP configuration. The value won't be as high as a correct engine LT-1. But at least I have the satifaction of rescuing the remains of its pedigree from complete obscurity. That to me is more of a reward than the monetary value. This is a hobby and not a business for me. I guess that's why I always have more money in my cars than they are worth. lolol.
The person I purchased the car from has many parts for the car stored away. He claims he has the original 4-speed; however, I have not seen it to verify the numbers, etc. The car is a 4-speed car. I checked the rear end, and it has been replaced at some point in it life. The fellow also has the original intake, carb, and heads. He's in the process of unpacking the parts and taking pictures for me. He should have everything ready for me within the next month. Part of the fun is the chase for me.
This sounds quite a bit off. By this theory, the non-original motor Last Sting Ray should have sold for $1,200,000 with the original motor.
The David Burroughs 12 mile '67 L88 should be higher by twice if they got the original engine back.
I think too many are putting too much emphasis (i.e., money) on the numbers on the pad indicating the engine is original, when it has been shown how NOM cars pass for original.
Didn't the Last Sting Ray pass Bloomington and NCRS without a deduction on the engine pad, yet everyone knew it is not original?
How many "original" engines really are not, but the owners aren't telling?
It is nice to have the car original or as close to original as possible, but saying it is worth double sounds more like people trying to bias the market to protect their own purchases.
It reminds me of the president of our Corvette club over 30 years ago telling a reporter how old Corvette values were increasing, and that the 1963 Fuel Injection Coupe was one of the highest, being worth at least $10,000 and that most sold for more.
He just happened to own a 1963 FI Coupe.
In 1976, I never saw any midyear Corvette sell for $10,000, and few over $5000. A friend's very loaded new '76 L82 just barely made it to $10,000 with the taxes.
But sure enough, the paper printed it as gospel, and people all around "knew" that the '63 coupe was "worth $10,000".
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