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In my search for a 68 or 69 tri-power project car I've seen a few cars with a CE block. Now I understand that this is a warranty block but I don't understand how to tell if the car was a L-36 or L-89 or even a small block car. From what I see, ALL warranty blocks were CE blocks...or am I missing something?
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Re: CE Blocks
Documentation is the only way, tank sticker or protectoplate.
Steve -
Re: CE Blocks
That's what I was thinking Steve.
So basically you could take say a 69 300hp convert, find a CE big block block, find some aluminum heads on ebay along with the proper tach as well as the other minor big block things like rear swaybar, etc and all of a sudden you have an "original" 69 L-89 convert with a warranty replacment block. You can always say the tank was replaced years ago and that the "second owner" that you bought the car from didn't get any paper work with it.
I'm starting to get the feeling that there are more than a few out there that fall into this catagory. Thanks for clearing this up for me. I'm really starting to see that my quest for my future tri-power car might be the easy part and KNOWING that it's real will the hard part...and if I get it wrong, the expensive part!Comment
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Re: CE Blocks
Greg -
There's no way to determine the innards of a "CE" block by the pad stamp (only gives year of manufacture and sequence number by plant). Dealers ordered them by part number off a chart so they'd have the same crank, rods and pistons as the failed engine, and transferred the rest of the bolt-on parts from the failed engine. That part number only appeared on the crate it came in and on the shipping paperwork.Comment
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Worse yet are the decent restamps
There are restamps out there that are good enough to fool even the trained eye. I was talking with one restamper and he alone had done over 1500 Corvette blocks!!!! I am willing to bet that a HUGE number of the "original engine" cars out there are restamps. In the early 1980's, I had a part time job at a busy speed shop that assembled many high perf engines. I can promise you that nearly every one of them was DECKED! Same thing with all the 1950's Corvettes - first thing any racer did was to junk the 283 and swap in a 327 or 350 (forget that junk rope seal on the crank )- amazing how all those cars now have their "original" engines again!
In buying any car, I would treat it as a pile of parts. If you like it as it is and the parts are worth the price, then go ahead and buy it. If you're thinking it really is an original engine high perf car, you may be very disappointed later. Probably the only exception to this rule are the base engine cars as they may have had a reasonable owner and few people restamp an engine for the base motor, they usually "trade up".
Good luck in your quest,
MarkComment
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Re: Worse yet are the decent restamps
This is my way of thinking also. Too many were used for what they were - fast cars. That meant building engines or swapping engines. The only ones I remember with original engines in the '70s were the PowerGlide ones that someone's mother owned.
It was a rare thing to find a Corvette with its original engine. Usually an original engine meant it was owned by a woman or someone much older, and thus not abused. That was what was valuable then, an unabused car. That original engine was only an indicator, not a value in itself. It indicated the real value - an unabused car.
After one is body off restored, the abuse should have been erased, since it should be a new car. I find it incredible that a body off car has to go through checks to be sure everything works. If truly restored, then everything should work without question, just like a new car off the assembly line.
I remember flying down a country road one evening when suddenly the engine locked and we both ate the dash. I bet that '67 big block coupe has its original engine today, and I know for a fact it doesn't exist. I'd love to see it at a show or auction.Comment
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Re: CE Blocks
Why bother? If you are going to the trouble to install a CE block and fake a real car, why not just get the right block and fake it with a restamp. It will bring more money.
People are sheep, they will pay for numbers to match, not for a CE and a story, because that is what NCRS and Bloomington Gold have told them for 30 years.
And because of that, I'd be more inclined to believe a CE than many "originals", because there has been no profit in doing a CE. No one accepts them, so no one does them.Comment
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Re: CE Blocks
That's all good food for thought guys and here is my take on the whole restamping thing...
All fraud concerns aside, a PROPERLY restamped block is nothing more that a reproduction block. I say properly because a proper restamp goes beyond just nice broach marks and fonts. They somehow would have to match up with the data base that has been collected of known original pads of the same time frame that the restamped block is supposed to represent and the way I understand it, it would be like matching fingerprints to a certain degree. If this indeed works it would be a great thing for those with the original pads and not so good for the "original" pads. I remember years ago when PHS opened the archives and all these "GTO" owners sent in thier serial number so that they could finaly prove that their GTO was in fact a GTO and not a Lemans or Tempest only to see that the GTO option wasn't highlighted on the documentation!!! It didn't really increase the value of the real GTOs that much but it sure affected the value of the fakes. The problem I see with Corvettes is that even if the pad does come back as non original it still can't be proven that the car wasn't originaly what it is being represented as.
Anyways I'm getting side tracked here. Most of us don't get too upset with repro parts in fact most restored cars have a ton of repro parts in them with some being good repros and some not so good. Interior pieces, mechanical pieces, body pieces, even new paint and chrome are meant to reproduce what was once there. I know the judges will accept paint as long as it APPEARS to be lacquer even though it isn't. I personaly wouldn't have a problem using a restamped part IF it was done properly because it to then is just a repro part and this includes a engine block. However the numbers must reflect what is also on the inside or it is just a fraudulent part. SO if my 7029204 restamped carb is represented as such it had better have the proper rods, jets and what ever else it took to make it that part number back in 69...the same goes for any desireable engine option as well. Would I want to pay original prices for a restamped carb? No way BUT if it was in fact truely reproduced in all aspects to an original 7029204 carb, would it really matter? Moraly I would have to say maybe but in actuality I would have to say no because after all it's just numbers. This is how I look at restamped pads. I mean if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it must be a duck, right? Maybe not but does it matter?
Besides having a totaly original Corvette, emotions aside, where is the true value in a restored one? Is the value in what it is today or what it was back in the day? I really don't think I would have a problem buying a car with a restamped block as long as it fit in and passed the scrutiny or the stamp pad data base. The car could have been originaly what it is being represented as today or totaly different than what it was when it was new but as long as everything APPEARS normal what is the value of that car? If it was originaly a 300hp car does it's heart and soul still live on in that car or was it replaced when the PROPERLY REPRODUCED(externaly and internaly) L-88 was dropped in? Moraly it's wrong to represent it as an original L-88 but if neither this one nor an original L-88 can be proven as to what they were originaly, is there any difference? Today I would have to say not really but tomorrow I might have to say yes there is a big difference!
Times change and detection processes evolve...just ask any once proud Tri-Power, 4spd GTO owner how it feels to eagerly open his long awaited PHS letter and find nothing is highlighted...not even Lemans..." what the...this is only a 326 Tempest???"
Maybe some day those old Corvette records will surface but until then I think this new stamp pad data base will weed out a lot of the "tribute" cars and just plain fakes. Funny how they are called tribute cars today because I remember years ago that any faked GTO was just called a "bastard" car...guess BJ had better luck selling "tribute" cars.
Am I the only one thinking along this line?Comment
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well said... *NM*
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Re: CE Blocks
Interesting GTO story brings out the fact that a vette is a vette as opposed to it really being a chevelle or a monza. This proves the importance of auto genetics. The GTO analogy becomes more valid when engine options are compared within the corvette model itself and that seems to be where the discussion usually goes. Bottom line, a corvette is a corvette. That's good for a solid 10 points in anyones book.
As degrees of interest are applied, nuance plays a greater role. The smallest camp with purchase power would be the survivor type cars followers. Then the restorers with several affiliate waring tribes. It seems the largest group with the ability to purchase a corvette would be everyone else. This last group is a distant cousin to the 'restorers'. Their bottom line is to drive a car that is recognized as a corvette. All the groups overlap and assign value from their perspective.
Comments range from, 'well that car didn't have the original engine so it did not make me feel guilty putting on flares and a IRS in place of the solid axle' to " if I can find another body, I know where there is a 75 frame and my brother-in-law has a 327 from his old chevelle". "Yep should have the 68 ready for judging by spring"
Both ends of the corvette spectrum end in high $ value. Restored, real or imagined cars, and untouched well cared for originals at one end, and the highly modified well prepared LS-1, EFI, discs all around with new upgraded everything at the other. This forms a strange curve in that the direction of flow within the curve is circulating in two distinct directions.
All other cars settle into a somewhat stable strata of values making up the lower curve of this unique chart. Their direction determined by subjectiveness of the current owner.Comment
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