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  • Duke W.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • January 1, 1993
    • 15610

    I disagree

    I think it expands the topic to some interesting discussion because I don't think the average car guy understands cam regrinding or cam grinding for that matter.

    Camshafts can wear from extended service and the greatest wear is usually at the POML. The profile can be restored with a suitable lobe master on a cam grinding machine.

    For example, if the POML is worn less than .010", it can be reground "10 under" around the entire outside surface. You end up with the same lobe contour on a .010" smaller base circle radius, which is not going to have a major impact on rocker geometry. You can tell that it is reground by measuring the heel to toe (POML to base circle on a line that intersects the base circle center) dimension, which will be less than original by .020".

    The concern is whether this recontouring cuts through the relatively thin hardening at the surface, which is not always known, so there is always some risk of short life if what ends up as the surface is softer than the original surface.

    I think reground cams are okay for budget rebuilds, but for a precision rebuild I prefer a new camshaft as long as one is available and I am comfortable that it is OE quality or better.

    I was concerned about this situation in the manufacture of my "special 300 HP camshaft". As far as I was able to determine, ALL afermarket SB camshafts (and this probably also applies to vintage BBs, too) are made from a SINGLE blank manufactured by a division of Textron. They are delivered to cam grinders with all machining accomplished including installation of the indexing pin with the exception of lobe grinding, and the as cast LSA is in the range of typical cams, but since the POMLs and LSA of my design are VERY different than any OE or available aftermarket cams, I was concerned.

    However, the vendor assured me that my design could be produced without going through the flame hardened surface materinal, and the final Parkerizing would also aid longevity.

    All OE cams were ground from unique blanks that had specially designed as cast lobes based on the finished lobe dimensions. This minimized grinding time in high volume production. However, the replacement and aftermarket are much lower volume compared to OE so the best economic solution is apparently to use a single blank with generous as cast lobe materinal and relatively deep flame hardening for all camshafts for each engine family and let the grinding time vary depending on lobe design.

    Perhaps the saving grace of my design is that lobe heights are modest (being as how I used a couple of existing OE lobes, though they are from different OE camshafts), and the shorter the finished lobe height, the more the POMLs can be moved away from from the as cast POMLs of the blank.

    Master lobes are ground about 10X scale, so .001" error on the master lobe is .0001" on the finished cam, and assuming the machine is in good order, final dimensions should be well within OE TIR and runout tolerance.

    OE cam drawings give lobe height every cam degree to five decimal places. To make a master lobe you start out with a circular piece of relatively hard corrosion resistant steel whose diameter is a little over 10X the finished heel to toe dimension or whatever scaling factor is correct for the target cam grinding machine.

    Then you chuck it up on a rotary fixture on milling machine with the axis of rotation located at the center of the base circle. Starting somewhere on the base circle you take a cut equal to 10X the finished base circle radius, rotate one degree and take another cut and so on until you reach the first point of eccentricity which is say .00005" above the base circle. At that point you move the spindle out .0005" and make the cut, then rotate the work another one degree and move the spindle axis according to the next eccentricity data point.

    After a total of 360 cuts and a final smoothing with a piece of crocus cloth, you have a master lobe that is ready to bolt to the cam grinding machine. The grinding wheel follows that master lobe and is continuously moved inward on the blank until the final base circle or heel to toe dimension is obtained on each lobe - nominal original, ten under, whatever.

    This is at least 100 year old technology. Maybe current high volume OE cam lobes are ground on NC machines and all you have to do is input the base circle and eccentricity data, mount the cam blank and push a button, but AFAIK all the aftermarket vendors use these ancient technology "follow the master lobe" mechanical cam grinding machines for most of what they offer in their catalogs. Crane alone claims that they have 80,000 master lobes. Of course, not all are suitable for SB Chevies, but you get the idea.

    Any cam grinder who has OE masterlobe(s) for your cam can regrind it (assuming he does regrinding of used cams) as long as wear is within whatever his experience says is acceptable for regrinding, but if his has the proper master lobes he can grind them on a new blank for not much more than regrinding the original cam.

    Duke
  • Duke W.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • January 1, 1993
    • 15610

    #2
    How to grind a camshaft

    Looks like the original thread got chopped up as sometimes happens.

    Maybe the above subject will get some hits in the archives if anyone is ever interesting is how camshafts are manufacturered and remanufactured.

    You only get this stuff on the NCRS DB - no other Corvette web site.

    Duke

    Comment

    • Duke W.
      Beyond Control Poster
      • January 1, 1993
      • 15610

      #3
      Now I get it...

      Loren's post is gone. So any replies to it during its brief life end up as new threads.

      Duke

      Comment

      • Lyndon S.
        Expired
        • April 30, 1988
        • 1027

        #4

        Comment

        • Duke W.
          Beyond Control Poster
          • January 1, 1993
          • 15610

          #5
          Re: Now I get it...

          The originator can delete their own post or the site administator can delete posts.

          Maybe it's best to just let the issue fade away without explanation.

          Duke

          Comment

          • Wayne K.
            Expired
            • December 1, 1999
            • 1030

            #6
            Re: Now I get it...

            Duke,

            Your post is informative even though I didn't read the previous post you've mentioned. Hopefully others will also find it intersting.

            Thanks,
            Wayne

            Comment

            • Dave Suesz

              #7
              I talk to the manufacturer for a catalog...

              occasionally in my summer job. Although the catalog is for Mustangs, the camshaft manufacturer makes all types of cams. When I call them, I actually get to talk to the floor manager, who himself does some of the work. They use the cam follower technology, and a couple years ago we provided a BOSS 302 camshaft to a customer, who had it evaluated before installation by a Ford engineer friend and compared it to the factory specs, and found it way off, as shown in a computer generated trace, with blue and red lines depicting the cam profiles. I checked with the manufacturer, who asked us to check a couple of points on the cam. However, in the interim, the engineer friend discovered a mistake in the setup, and sent us a new trace. Instead of a blue and red line, the two traces had merged into a single purple line. The point here is that even using the "old" technology, with an NOS original cam as a profile guide, they produced a cam that was identical to the original within the limits of "modern" technology to check it.

              Comment

              • Duke W.
                Beyond Control Poster
                • January 1, 1993
                • 15610

                #8
                Re: I talk to the manufacturer for a catalog...

                Even though mechanical cam grinders are hundred plus year old technology, and such machines are still manufactured, there's nothing wrong with the technology, especially for relatively low volume manufacturing. A mechanical cam grinder in good working order will grind a lobe to very acceptable tolerances. A new NC machine might be able to hold tighter tolerances, but the performance difference on the engine will be negligible.

                But there are guys that think aftermarket cams are "new technology", which is bunk. Most aftermarket manufacturers use these tried and true old mechanical cam grinders, and given that Chevrolet understood valvetrain dynamics very well 40 years ago despite the lack of current analysis tools, the OE SB lobes are every bit as good as a lobe that can be designed today for a vintage SB or BB using the latest CAE tools. The difference is that current CAE tools allow a lobe design to be analzed in a few seconds rather than several hours of hand calculations, and the CAE tools will analyze valvetrain behavior very accurately where in the old days it had to be tested on an instrumented engine. "Modern technology" just allows a design to be developed, analyzed, and proven in much less time.

                One aftermarket cam manufacturer brags that their lobe masters are produced on NC machines. Big deal! A good machinist and a fifty year old milling machine in good condition can make a lobe master that is just as accurate.

                I'll take a 30-50 year old OE lobe design over some claimed "new technology" lobe any day of the week. I have all the OE lobe data and have analyzed their dynamic behavior. All I need is a cam manufacturer with good process and quality control so I am assured that the finished product is built within GM's tolerances called out on the original print including lobe hardness.

                Duke

                Comment

                • Dave Suesz

                  #9
                  Those "old guys"

                  knew what they were doing- the Cobra high-rise manifold designed over 40 years ago is within a few percent of the performance of "modern" computer-designed intakes. I used to put the 327/350hp Chevy cam in all sorts of things, including twin V8 offshore boats, with excellent results.

                  Comment

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