Help! I am being framed!

[Tony DiGiorgio]

Hello everyone! We are almost to the point where the body is going to come off of the frame on my mid year. Now that we are to the frame, can anyone impart some words of wisdom to the various tasks to be undertaken in the restoration of the frame area? I understand that removal and rebuilding of the spindles can be a tricky undertaking. Who can you suggest on the spindle rebuild?

Are there other areas that caution should be exercised? What is the best way to go as far as the front suspension? Does one purchase a kit, or say order the pieces one by one from a Long island type of supplier?

Any shared experience on any of this would be greatly appreciated. Car hopes to be flight judged. Thanks in advance, you are a great group of people.

[Joe L.]

Re: Help! I am being framed!

Tony-----

I offer the following relative to your questions:

1-The trailing arms are best left to the professional rebuilder. This includes the spindles, bearing supports, and trailing arms. Make sure that you tell whoever you have do them that you want an NCRS/NCCB correct restoration. That way, they'll use the correct finishes. If your brake backing plates are in good shape and are original, I recommend re-using them and having them re-plated. This is expensive, though. Many original rear brake backing plates were not actually plated at all; they were made from "pre-punch galvanized"material. If yours have rust around the very edge and nowhere else, they were "pre-punch galvanize". This cannot be duplicated by most plating shops and "reproduction" backing plates are all zinc or cad plated. Fear not, though, even if yours were pre-punch galvanized material, you can have them zinc or cad plated and the judges will just love it. As far as NCRS/NCCB are concerned, backing plates were all plated.

As far as rebuilding sources go, on the west coast, I highly recommend Carter's Corvette in Livermore, CA 925-449-2176. On the east coast, Bair's Corvette in Lineville, PA and Van Steel in Clearwater, FL are sources of good repute, although I have no direct experience with either. If you do business with Ken Carter, tell him that you want a restoration that would be satisfactory to Joe Lucia. That way, he'll know that you're a real finicky, hard-to-please, demanding, perfection-oriented SOB.

2-As far as front suspension goes, it depends on what you want. Buying a kit is as good as buying the individual pieces as long as you are satisfied with replacement-type pieces. However, bear in mind that kits or individually purchased front suspension parts are likely to be TRW or Moog parts. These are not configured exactly like the original GM parts. The current issue GM ball joints are configured EXACTLY like the originals that came on your car. Trust me on this one. I have in my parts collection pairs of EVERY NOS ball joint ever used on a Corvette from 1963 to 1982. There were four iterations of the upper joints and 2 iterations of the lower joint. I have carefully examined all of them. With the exception of the fact that some have installed grease fittings and some don't, all uppers and all lowers are indistinguishable. GM ball joints are VERY expensive, though. List price for a set of four is nearly $300. For complete originality, the ball joints will need to be rivetted to the control arms, as original. Very few Corvette service firms can set these steel rivets. ZO6 Productions in Florida is one that can. There are probably others, but not too many. New GM control arms come with rivetted GM ball joints and the assembly is virtually indistinguihable from the originals. A great way to go but these arms were discontinued about 3 years ago. Not before I added a set to my collection, though. Just in case I ever need them.

Replacement(Moog, TRW, etc.) tie rod ends are also different in configuration than GM originals. I've examined these closely, too. I have several examples of both the inner and outer GM tie rod ends in my "private stock". They are identical to the originals used from 1965 to 1982, but different than aftermarket replacements. GM outer tie rod ends are still available, but,unfortunately, the inner tie rod ends have been discontinued for several years and are nearly impossible to find. As usual, the GM tie-rod ends are considerably more expensive than aftermarket.

I hope that your front spindles are in good shape; the 67 spindles are long since discontinued and, as far as I know, they are not reproduced. Front disc brake rotor/hub assemblies are still available from GM, but they're expensive. The last time I checked the available assemblies were identical to the originals. However, since GM shut down the Danville, IL nodular iron foundry, the source for these parts might have changed and so, too, might the configuration.

Well, I guess I've gone on long enough. I had a lot more to say, but the board said my message was too long. Good luck

[Chuck G.]

Re: Help! I am being framed!

Hello Tony; Great responses from others. I agree. You're better off farming out the rear trailing arms and the front "A" frames. You'll have plenty to do working on the rest of the frame, and re-riveting ball joints, burning out and re-pressing bushings, and setting up rear wheel bearings is best left to the pros. I have friends with mechanical skills far greater than mine who will not attempt to do this kind of work. Chuck Gongloff

[Joe L.]

Re: Help! I am being framed!

Well, it's a new day so I'll add to the earlier post that I had to truncate due to excessive length.

Other info regarding front suspension rebuild:

The upper and lower rubber-core, A-Arm suspension bushings that are available from GM or aftermarket sources are the same. The lower bushings are manufactured by a company by the name of "Harris". The bushing available today is the same part number(3714368) and the same configuration as original. The upper bushings were originally of a configuration similar to the lower bushings and I believe they were manufactured by the same company, Harris, that has always produced the lower bushings. The outer steel jacket was about 3/16" shorter than the inner steel bushing, which allowed some of the rubber core to be exposed on the inner end. This bushing was replaced in January, 1973 for production and service with a new bushing(GM #401267). This bushing is manufactured by "Clevite" and has the outer steel jacket extending to the end of the bushing. This bushing is still available today. The original design bushings are difficult to locate and,as far as I know, no one reproduces them. I suppose Harris could do so if someone wanted to buy 100,000, or so.

Idler arm configuration has changed over the years. All Corvettes produced from 1963 until 1982 had the same idler arm, which was also available in service until 1985 or so. Then it was replaced for service with part number 14053350, which was of slightly different configuration. This part was discontinued about 1992 and replaced with part number 12509357, which continues to be available. This part is of very high quality(with a price to match), but its configuration is different from the original part. Aftermarket replacements range from very close to not very close at all with respect to configuration. So called "Heavy Duty" idlers are of the "not very close at all" variety.

I always recommend replacing front springs. However, if your car has non-F41 suspension, the original GM spring(#3888250) has been discontinued. If you have F41 suspension, the original springs(#3832518) may still be available.

As I mentioned previously, your front spindles(GM#3864023) have been long-since discontinued. Hopefully, yours will be serviceable.

If I get a chance later, I'll offer additional comments.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Help! I am being framed!

Van Steel in Clearwater, Florida is my absolute favorite for trailing arm and rear bearing rebuilds. They are the best in the business. They also rivet in new ball joints for your front, and in fact will restore them for you. If you're as picky as Joe L regarding the absolute correct ball joints, you may want to send them in with your A-arms.

[Joe L.]

Re: Help! I am being framed!

Tony---- Well, I,ve got a little time now so I'll offer a few more comments regarding your chassis restoration:

rear suspension

1-Your rear spring will be GM # 3850839 if your car is equipped with standard suspension and GM # 3828811 if F-41 equipped. Based on the description of your car, I'll assume that it was standard, non-F-41 suspension. The 3850839 spring is a 9 leaf spring. The bottom 6 leaves are arched and the top 3 are flat. If your spring is in relatively good condition, I recommend that you restore it. This spring has been long-since discontinued by GM and EXACT reproductions are not really available. I do not recommend that you have it "re-arched". To restore it, remove the spring center bolt and disassmble the spring. Inspect the leaves for cracks or excessive corrosion; minor pitting is ok. Clean the leaves thoroughly using a solvent and then de-rust/strip using a 3M abrasive wheel or bead blasting, if available. This is a tedious, dirty job that will require considerable time and effort, but, that's what restoration is all about. If the spring retainer cups found on the ends of the bottom leaf are in good shape, leave them be; replacing them can be tricky, although it can be done if you need to. After the leaves are clean, paint them with the special spring paint available from Quanta Products. Thsi paint is EXACTLY the same paint originally used on the springs. Re-assemble the spring using new GM plastic spring liners(GM#3794113)or you can buy the complete kit from Quanta(includes correct spring liners, paint, center bolt, and end cups). The restored spring will look exactly the way it came from the factory.

If you have to replace the spring, the most correct one out there is manufactured by Eaton Detroit Spring, but this spring will require a lot of work to bring it to nearly correct appearance and configuration. If you need to do this advise and I will tell you what you need to do. Bear in mind, though, that even after completing this work, the spring will not be EXACTLY like the original spring.

2-Half shafts and drive shafts are very difficult to restore to the extruded tube finish that the shafts had when the cars came out of the factory. If you insist on as nearly correct as possible appearance, you will need to have your shafts "re-tubed". This means taking them to a driveshaft repair shop, having them remove the forged ends, and install new tube sections using virgin, rust-free tubing. Of course, these will quickly rust unless protected. You can use a clear coat protectant, but, this will impart a non-original, paint-like coating or you can apply a product called Pre Lube 6. This imparts a natural finish, but you have to apply it frequently. Forget just once and it will be time to "re-tube" again. Use Spicer non-zerk-equipped U-joints, as originally fitted. Have a driveshaft shop install them; the half shaft joint can be very tricky and difficult and without the proper fixtures, you might destroy the spindle-end flange.

3-Strut rods originally installed on your car were GM # 3819205. These were discontinued in 1975 and replaced with part number 459076, which are of different configuration with larger ends. You can rebuild your strut rods, if original, by bead blasting and installing new end bushings(GM # 3775762). The strut rods will rust immediately if unprotected. You can use Pre Lube 6 with the same proviso as above, apply a more permanent clear coat protectant, or apply cast blast paint. I recommend VHT high temp cast blast. It provides a VERY natural looking finish and won't rust. Of course, you'll lose afew point on the judging field, but, the choice is yours.

More later.

[Brandon K.]

Rear Leaf Spring

Joe-

Why do you recommend against re-arching the rear spring? Also, is it safe to take the spring apart, or is it under pressure and difficult to reassemble w/out special tools?

-Brandon Korman

[Joe L.]

Re: Rear Leaf Spring

Brandon---

There are several reasons that I recommend against rearching of leaf springs. First, rearching involves the re-tempering of the steel. This can produce spring leaf weakness, especially considering the fact that these leafs are decades old and have flexed countless times. Second, re-establishing the original spring rate can be very tricky, if not impossible. Third, there are very few shops that have the experience or equipment to "properly" rearch a spring. Fourth, most knowledgable spring experts will advise against re-arching; I trust their judgement. Last, in my opinion, most Corvette leaf spring don't need it; owners just "suppose" that their springs are weak or are attributing problems that they are having to it when the real problem lies elsewhere.

You can easily disassemble the Corvette leaf spring WHEN IT IS OUT OF THE CAR. In the car, the spring is under tension. Out of the car, there is VERY little tension. Simply remove the spring center bolt and the leafs will rather gently seperate.

[Joe L.]

Re: Rear Leaf Spring

Brandon----

I should also have pointed out that if you want to check your spring for problems, there are at least two things you can do with the spring in the car and no special tools or knowledge.

First, inspect the spring with the car on the ground at ride height(i.e. not just after lowering it from a jack or jackstands). This is best done with the spare tire carrier out of the car, but that is not absolutely essential. The spring should appear "flat" or with a VERY SLIGHT positive arch(i.e. center of spring SLIGHTLY higher than the ends). If the spring appears like this, it is serviceable. If the spring has a negative arch(i.e. spring lower in the center than on the ends), it will need to be replaced or, if you dare, re-arched.

Second, check the ride height dimensions found in your assembly manual and/or service manual. There are dimensions given for 'frame-to-ground' at several points and dimensions for interrelationship of suspension components to one another. If these dimensions are within specs, the spring is serviceable. DO NOT USE MEASUREMENTS MADE FROM POINTS ON THE BODY TO THE GROUND AS A MEANS OF ASSESSING SPRING CONDITION. Many other factors beside spring condition can affect these types of dimensions. Often times, if an owner notices that his car "leans" to one side, he attributes that to weak springs. Usually, that condition is NOT related to spring condition at all.

[Joe L.]

Re: Help! I am being framed!

Tony----

OK, time for a few more comments relative to your chassis restoration questions:

As far as shock absorbers go for your chassis restoration, there are several options for you to consider:

1)If you have the original shocks for the car and you don't plan on driving the car very much, you can restore them. Bear in mind that you can only restore the shock absorber cosmetically; there is no means that I know of available to FUNCTIONALLY restore a shock absorber. Cosmetic restoration is relatively simple. First, remove all rubber bushings(except front, lower). Next, clean the shock thoroughly, removing any loose paint and use steel wool or fine grit sandpaper to roughen the surface. Do not bead blast as there is too much danger of damaging what's left of the shock's functional components with grit. Paint the shocks using the shock absorber paint available from Quanta. Install new rubber bushings. Each front upper requires 1 GM #6270752 grommet(below frame), 1 GM # 3790341 grommet(above frame) and 1 GM # 3790342 retainer on top of the upper grommet. Each rear lower requires 2 GM #3735334 grommet. This will give you an "as original" installation.

2) If you don't have the original shocks, you could look for a set of NOS examples. Don't hold your breath, though; you'll probably NEVER see a single example, let alone a set. You could also look for a used set and restore as above. Very slim chance here, too. And, don't forget, used shocks are really only an answer for a "trailer queen" or for installing for show purposes only. These shocks are dated with a "Julian" date system so that adds much more complexity to the search process. Anyway, the shocks you are looking for are as follows front-std #3186906, HD #3171488; rear-std #3186907, HD #3171489.

3)Purchase modern-day GM replacement shocks for this particular application. These shocks will not have the correct "numbers" and they will be painted black. However, their configuration will be VERY close to the originals. Paint them using the Quanta paint. Don't use any of the loose hardware or rubber grommets that come in the package. This is non-original. Use the hardware and grommets that I described in (1), above. You will have an installation that is very close to original in appearance/configuration. Standard shocks are very, very close. Heavy Duty (F41)close, but not as close(especially rear upper configuration). Part numbers are front-std #4975486, HD #3196957; rear-std #22011967, HD #4940459.

4)Purchase new GM/Delco Reactec shocks. These shocks have the same configuration as the standard suspension shocks in (3), above. However, they will perform MUCH BETTER. If you want to drive the car, THIS IS THE WAY TO GO; EXCELLENT PERFORMANCE and close to original appearance/configuration. They are black, too. Remove the labels, clean, and paint with Quanta paint. Don't use packaged hardware/grommets. Use that described in (1), above. Part numbers are front-#22065208; rear #22065207.

More later.

[Patrick H.]

Hey Joe L!

Hi Joe!

So where do you GET all this information? While all the best "knowledgeable" Corvette restorers and judges realize that the more they learn the less they know, reading your comments on the frame/chassis makes me think I don't know "anything."

So how much for you to restore my chassis...? Just kidding. I know you probably don't do it for hire.

[Joe L.]

Re: Hey Joe L!

Patrick-----

First of all, I want to make it clear that I am, by no means, the definitive source of information regarding Corvettes. Far from it! I'm still learning like everyone else in this hobby. I do not make my living, or, for that matter, derive any source of income from Corvettes. Therefore, I obviously don't have the experience or breadth of knowledge of folks who are professionals. Also, my 'specialty' has always been 68-72 models, although I've learned a bit about other models due to the commonalities with 68-72 that 63 to 82 models share. In addition, just being around the hobby for as long as I have, a lot of bits and pieces of information have come my way and I'm blessed with a pretty good memory. Anyway, most of what knowledge I possess comes from the following:

1) I have been a Chevrolet enthusiast since I was 15 and owned 2 Chevelle SS396 cars, a 1966 L-34 and a 1968 L-78 with M-22 trans, both of which I factory-ordered. Following that, I have been involved with and studied Corvettes for over 30 years. I bought my first new Corvette in 1969, a riverside gold, 300hp, 4-speed convertible which I factory-ordered. I still have it, although I ceased driving it on a daily basis in 1977. With the exception of some minor warranty work performed early on, I am the only one who has ever worked on the car, and, over the years, I have purchased most of the Kent-Moore(GM) special tools to work on it. I have performed ALL work except engine machine work, differential rebuilding(although I've been thinking about getting the tools for this), and front/rear alignnment(although, recently, I've started doing this, too). The car currently has 200,000 miles on it, virtually every one driven by me.

2) Many years ago I started to worry about the continued availability of parts for the car(a little neurotic, I admit). About 1975 I started acquiring new GM parts against future need. I've continued this quest to the present. Today, I have over 3,500 NOS GM parts in my "private stock", many of which, by now, have been long-since discontinued. As a result of this 25 year effort, I've learned a lot about Corvette parts.

3) Over the years I have acquired MANY General Motors and other parts publications, many of which were never in "general circulation", and, most of which, have long since been purged from other repositories. I've saved virtually every one, so I have a very well-stocked library to refer to. This helps me answer questions which other NCRS members pose.

4) In late 1991, after many years of owning other unexciting new cars, I factory-ordered my second Corvette, a 1992 LT1, 6-speed coupe. I still have it, too, although I no longer drive it on a daily basis, either. And, within the last couple of years, although I promised myself I wouldn't, I've started collecting parts for it, too. Very, very scary!

5) Sorry, I don't do ANY work, whatsoever, on other Corvettes. I give advice, though.