I am looking at a 65 with a 396. The engine does not match the protector plate number but does match the body tags otherwise. Engine build date is one month after the vehicle date and 1 month before the vehicle delivery date. Has anyone encountered this before? Explanation?
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Re: 65 w/396
Chris, I have read where some members have had some odd dates in particualar holidays stamped on their blocks. Remember the holidays presented overtime for a lot back then so they worked to my knowledge.I'm sure others will elaborate more on this subject as build dates and shipment of the cars has been an on going issue of discussion with many.grr.#33570 -
Re: 65 w/396
Chris --- Can you be a little more specific as to the numbers ? ie. state the approx VIN tag # [example](186xx) and the trim tag date (Jxx), and body source (A-38xx or S-38xx), protect-o-plate (POP) engine assy date (T04xxIF) I assume the engine stamp pad is different from this. Give veh. del. date if you have it. Not sure of your term "vehicle date". The more precise the #'s the better answer you can expect. Were you able to get the car on a hoist and check other POP dates/codes on the trans and diff ?Comment
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Re: 65 w/396
On the Protecto the engine is T0629IF H on the engine pad it's T0720IF. On the Body tag the body is A-7106. The vin derivitive is 122212. This number is found on the engine pad, the transmission and under the dash 194675S122212. The transmission has P0630 and that matches the Protecto Plate as well. We saw an L01 on the plate under the dash. The Diff had AZ42865 and E275.
The trim was 437B, the Protecto Plate interior was 437U.Comment
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Re: 65 w/396
One more piece to the puzzle the protecto plate indicates an 8-25-65 delivery date.Comment
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Re: 65 w/396
OK --- Let's start with the diff: AZ = 3.55 gears w/L78, assembled April 28th, but the cast date of the case E275 (I assume that it's the on the main case, and not a date found on the rear cover) shows May 27th, AFTER the build of the diff. Did the POP show the same assy date as the AZ on the bottom flange ?
Next --- Trim tag codes; 437 = white and black vinyl; the "B" following on the trim tag just confirms that it was a convertible from AO Smith (Ionia). The POP "U" following the 437 is the exterior paint color, rally red. All OK here. Body code A-7106 (7106th Ionia built convertible built) agrees well with the L01 (July 1st, holiday), and the VIN sequence # 22212.
Trans assy date of June 30th is good, although I'd expect to see "S122212" as the stamped VIN derivative.
Last (and in the opinions of many, not least) Engine -- You seem to already know that it's not the original engine, due to the mismatch with the POP. July 20th assembly is AFTER the day your car left the assembly line. Did you get a cast # off the side of the block ? The VIN derivative that should be on the stamp pad (located inboard of the assy date stamp) should be 5122212. If you didn't have the POP, one could always argue that the motor was replaced while at St.Louis. If the stamp pad was "enhanced" by a previous owner, it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't duplicate the POP assy date.Comment
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Re: 65 w/396
The transmission does have the vin derivitive of S122212. The engine pad indicates 5122212. On the inner fender, passenger side, in yellow paint is written RM 07-28-65.Comment
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Re: 65 w/396
The E275 comes off the rear plate, not the engine block. The rear plate also has AZ42865.
The POP has 437U, T0629IF H; AZ0428WS; P0630.Comment
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Re: 65 w/396
Chris --- About all I can add is that the "H" following (by 3 spaces) the engine assy date on the POP is for "Holley" carburetor. Likewise, the "S" (following the rear axle code by 3 spaces) is the month of production of the vehicle. They use a reverse order system; T = June, V = May, W = April, etc. The "W" following the rear axle assy date is for "Warren" (Mich.) This is all explained in the Assembly Instruction Manual (AIM), page UPC 14 (for '65, anyway).
The E275 puzzles me if it is stamped next to the AZ 04 28 65 W, on the bottom flange of the differential forward of the spring. I've never seen this. April 28th is not too early for 3.55/L78 gears, as buyers selected this ratio 5 to 8 times less frequently than the 3.70's and 4.11's, and there was'nt much inventory turnover.
I wouldn't worry about the Aug 28th date on the POP; it's just the date of the sale, and 6 or 8 weeks after dealer delivery is not uncommon, this late in the model year. As an example, the POP of # 22648 (originally Walt Disney's veterinarian's car) has a date of 9/2/65. The dealer added this info to the POP with Dymo(sp?) tape.
As to that yellow RM date on the right inner fender, maybe it stands for "Removed", maybe at the dealer (which would explain why the POP engine code didn't agree). I'm WAG'ing here, and hope that others would join this thread.Comment
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Re: 65 w/396
Wayne,
Another possibility might be an inspector's "sign off".
I would be skeptical about it being applied at a dealership. I used to work for a dealership; it's just a job to most of those guys, but maybe its possible.
When I removed the factory blackout from the underside of my '70 hood, I found about in the center of the hood markings in red or brown crayon consisting of "7-22-70", and immediately below that the initials (my interpretation) "OB". There was apparently no unusal repair activity on my car from what I know. I have found several crayon dates; but the other dates have no "initials", e.g., "6-23-3" on the exhaust filler panel fiberglass, which I interpret to mean June 23, third shift.
Chuck SangerhausenComment
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Re: 65 w/396
Chris, the engine build date stamp is unusual in that, like Wayne said, if it's been restamped you'd think the restamper would put an apprpraite "correct" date on the pad too. Maybe the original motor blew up in the yard at St.Louis. From what I hear not out of the realm of possiblity. Is the motor being advertised as "original" or "matching numbers"?
Check the to make sure it's a Corvette 4 bolt main 396 vs. the two bolt passenger 396. It should have two external reinforcing ribs that run from the top front edge of the intake manifold to the top of the timing chain cover. Also, above the the oil filter on the block there should be a 1 inch plug for an oil cooler. If possible pull the valve covers to check for the square port cyclinder head part number (don't have it in front of me). I believe square port heads have a casting line running across the front edge of the head just below the valve covers.
Has the car been retored? I just bought a 396 side pipes, knock offs, coupe and it's strikingly beautiful and un Godly fast. Only 1400 396 convertibles were built so the motivation is there for some resale trickery. If you decide to move on the car, I recommend bringing an NCRS/Bloomington type to go through the car.1969 Riverside Gold Coupe, L71, 14,000 miles. Top Flight, 2 Star Bowtie.Comment
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Re: 65 w/396
Thanks all for the information. Wayne, the E275 was actually on the engine block not on the diff. I have verified that the motor is a Corvette 396. We are going to bring an NCRS 63-65 expert to look at the car tomorrow. I'll report back with his findings. Thanks again for all the help and information. Wish us luck.
Chris and JoanComment
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Hum....
Seems to me one thing got dropped in this thread and that's the body source. If memory serves the second post disclosed the trim tag reading 'A' as a pre-fix to the build date which would indicate an AO Smith body instead of of a St. Louis body for this car. It's not unusual for AO Smith cars to 'violate' lots of judging timeline rules as the body could have been assembled months before it was taken inside the St. Louis final line to meet up with its chassis and power train....
But, if the protecto plate calls out an IF date stamp on the engine that was how the car was 'hung' to go down the final line and meet up with it's key components. Heck, wouldn't be the first time there was computer schedule to protecto plate glitch in the system (one of our chapter members did a stint for GM visiting dealerships and 'correcting' factory documentation snafu's).
Also, if the car was scheduled down the line, met its intended engine, malfunctioned, and was pulled into a repair pit where repair was effected by engine substitution, you'd have a legitimate case as you see it (POP disagrees with actual engine stamp). Of course this might have been the result of a dealer engine swap and/or a prior owner restoration.....
In any case, the L78 is a rare enough bird to cut some slack here (parts are worth a bloody fortune) depending on what your intention is for the car. Are you looking to buy and concours campaign it (if so, the burden of proof is upon the owner and I know of NO judges who compare the protecto plate to the engine stamp pad during engine authenticity verification) or enjoy, drive and hold a slice of automotive history????Comment
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Re: Hum....
Jack: Where have you been...??? I am still attempting to secure the R4489 carb from Jerry Luck. He has it, it's just the "time" thing, as you forewarned... The '70 LT-1 w/NA9 is on the power grid for re-configuring as original, and as planned. Jeff B.Comment
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Re: Hum....
Sometimes there are other things in life than Corvettes and NCRS and I readily admit I had a recent fatal bout with some of these. Hence, my absense. But, I'm not going to dwell on Who/What/When here because that's water over the damn!
I didn't mention that a fellow here in Denver parted out a '70 that was a rather untouched '70 NA-9 car (SB A/T Coupe) and based on Roberto's Driveline article called me up to show the carb parts....
Included in the 'package' (he'll take goodies to Bloomington to see if there's a serious buyer, might be another word for the person he expects to encounter) were the real McCoy Q-Jet mounting fasteners. FASCINATING, as Spock said....
Like the AIM says, the nuts used at the rear of the Q-Jet were identical to those used on 49-State Holley setups. The front bolts WERE different from 49-State Q-Jet application (Grade 5, black phosphate, copied down the head marks but don't have 'em at hand) and instead of simply hex-head on shaft configuration, these were hex-head with washer-head integral washer flanges beneath the bolt.
Last, the original front bolt Q-Jet insulators (or what was left of 'em) were there to view. They were broken from time/age, but consisted of black nylon and looked similar to a 'minature' of the dealer installed luggage rack well nuts -- VERY thin, maybe 1/16th inch, upper lip orthagonal to the cylindrical body of the insulator that was shoved down the Q-Jet front bolt holes. The cylindrical body was thinner yet (1/32nd inch?) in diameter and basically provided an insulating sleeve to thermally isolate the mounting bolts from the shaft holes in the front of the Q-Jet.....Comment
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