Broach marks, stmping and castings

[David D.]

Re: Since "here we go again" is not

John, I would have to agree with a "subtle shift" seems to be taking place and has been going on for some time. IMO, it is just as you stated, the focus is changing from "appears original" to "must be original". Otherwise, why would there be a even be a need to use a "bore scope" or book's on authentication of trim tags, if that is not the case? The one exception, possibly being Bowtie cars, of course. Dave

[John M.]

Re: I don't think any judge here

Mike,

I am sorry, but is is still all semantics. If it makes anyone feel better, lets say that we are not trying to "fool" the judges, but rather are trying to "convince" them that the part appears as original. I think that most people would not take exception with the "fool the judges" statment. Nobody is saying that the judges are fools or anything even remotely like that. I think that this is just another example of political correct speak run amok. Everybody has to constantly be on their gaurd to avoid offending someone, even there was no intent to do so.

So, from this point forward, I will only refer to "convince the judge", and drop "fool the judge" from my vocabulary.
Also I apologize profusely to any NCRS judge that I offended by my statments, and will be checking myself into rehab next week to deal with my problem.

Regards, John McGraw

[Chris Patrick]

Re: I don't think any judge here

I think you missed my point, Mike. No one is fooled looking in a car and seeing a new interior that the seat covers and carpets are original. So they are graded as to how well they match what original is supposed to look like.

The skill of the restorer is graded, by giving deductions for what they did wrong. You may get 100% or you may only get 25% but it becomes one of how well you did. No fooling anyone.

When it comes to engine pads, there is none of that luxury. It has to be EXACTLY like the factory did it, 100%, or you get 0%, on each item.

If it were truly graded, then an item like the VIN would be graded 100% if it looks just like the factory, maybe 75% if you used the right font stamps and had them correct but maybe got one out of line slightly. Maybe 25% if you used some Harbor Freight stamps that are the wrong font, but are positioned correctly and do match the car.

And when they know the engine isn't original, or at least suspect it, don't they check just a little bit closer? Didn't the Last Sting Ray get checked a bit more since so many knew the engine was a replacement?

So in this case, the restorer is really trying to fool the judge. If he makes him think it looks just like factory, he gets his 25 points or 38 points. If he doesn't fool the judges, he gets 0.

I'm sorry if "fooling the judges" sounds bad, but that is where it has come to. As Dave said, if were only about looking like the factory did, there would be no need of borescopes and magnification of trim plates.

I've seen a lot of cars that insurance agents totaled 40 years ago that had both VIN and trim plates stripped by the agents. Today, you can retitle them and have a state-issued VIN for judging, but if you get a reproduction VIN or Trim plate, you are out. End of judging. So you sure can't be honest and admit you have a "reproduction" part on those either.

[Chris Patrick]

Re: I don't think any judge here

Mike, maybe John is right. If "fool the judges" is bothering you, just think "convince the judges" instead. I'm sorry if the "fool the judges" offends you.

I am sure all of the judges are smart enough to know what we have on most items are not original, but we are trying to convince them they look like it, so we can get the points.

I think somewhere the original intent and the current intent has gone different directions. I may be all wet here, and it wouldn't be the first time, but I think the reason for the originality factor was so that you had original type items and not something that was very unoriginal. Or rather, I think this too is a case of symantics. I think "stock" would have been better than "originality".

Most judged cars have a stock intake, few have the original intake. Most have stock seat covers, few have original seat covers. I think in my very humble opinion, this was the goal, to have them "stock", not necessarily "original".

But in 30 some years, some of that has been lost or altered.

[Michael W.]

Glad you and John got my point! *NM*

and sorry for the NM message