Who owns the problem when the paint job blister?

[Joe C.]

Re: Who owns the problem when the paint job bliste

If your car was ever exposed to the slightest amount of humidity, then I'm afraid that that's the cause.

Take the new front clip which "J" is offering you, give it to your painter in good faith as an exchange for his stripping and repaint, or sell it. Have your painter use a very generous layer of gelcoat before repainting. For as long as you own the car, NEVER cover it. NEVER let it become exposed to excess humidity. If it does, then promptly drive it, to quickly dry any condensation from the inner surfaces of the replaced panels. These precautions will minimize any future problems you may have. It will prolong the next outbreak, but may not prevent it entirely.........then again, it might!

If you prefer not to do this, then buy "the other guy's" (let's call it brand "S")panels. Since you're dealing with a jig fit nose, then NOS replacements are almost certainly not an option.

[Chris Patrick]

Re: Not In My Opinion...

The alternative is original glass. There is a lot of it, and if you have to patch this new stuff, then you can patch the broken original stuff.

[Joe M.]

Re: Who owns the problem when the paint job bliste

To offer blind suggestions for a cure without knowing specifically what the goo is, why it is there and what physical conditions cause the 'leakage' is self defeating.

Moreover, why this information is not forthcoming from the manufacturer for panels sold and the problem eliminated for future product defies good business sense. Obviously the gelcoat solution works for some and not others. This implies inconsistent materials or process. It is like listening to a man complain he is cold when all he needs to do is close the windows. Can p*ssing in the wind be that much fun?

[Scott Marzahl]

Re: How Much of the Body Was Replaced?

Well I will go ahead and chime in since this very thing just happened to me on my '67 as well, and it took almost 2 years for the Gel Coat to blister. The entire car with the exception of the doors has been reconstructed with these panels, and only parts of the front end assembly blistered. I am working with CI on this to resolve the issue to satisfy both of us. The front end came gel coated which I blocked smooth, performed all the fitting and body work needed to fit it to the car. Then as directed, Gel Coated the entire car with Eckers Gel Coat and then blocked it for primer surfacer. Once fall came, the front end started to develop dark blotches here and there. Almost a year later, the gel coated front end began to blister. As I understand the chemistry of this problem from the materials science guys here at work, the polyester resin may not have been fully cured. Ambient moisture wicked into the polyester resin and fiberglass composite from the backside of the panels or even through the Gel Coated side. The free esters combine with the moisture and collect in the pinholes of the composite. It then becomes an acidic liquid which can be verified by a litmus paper test. As the hydroscopic pressure in the void builds, it forms bilsters and can eventually pop the Gel Coat. As stated in some previous posts, this isn't anything new but it sure sucks when it happens to you!

[Chuck S.]

Re: Not In My Opinion...

There is "patching", and then there is "PATCHING"!

In my case, it was a superficial blemish on the surface, not a through and through defect...It was even easier to deal with than a stress crack.

The rule of thumb is: Use resin and mat to repair cracks if there are no large pieces missing; if pieces are missing, then you have to graft in a donor panel piece to essentially bring it back to a "crack repair" that can be done with resin and mat. You shouldn't attempt to fill voids (missing pieces) by lamination. I've seen those yayhoo efforts, and it looked like The Nightmare Before Christmas...not suitable for restoration.

Chris, I don't know that there's that much original fiberglass left out there. Any original fiberglass still on the market brings a premium. If you have a high dollar, big block car, you can afford to insist on original fiberglass...otherwise, press molded repro panels offer an economical, cost effective alternative.

[John M.]

Re: How Much of the Body Was Replaced?

Scott's experience just goes to prove that gelcoating the panel is NOT the solution to the problem! I am sure that Corvette Image is doing everything they can to resolve the problem, but given the long period of time that this has been going on without being resolved, I am not confident that they have it figured out yet. The blistering problem is almost always reported from several months to a year or better after the car is painted, so it is not clear that the problem still exists on the panels made today, but by the same token, there is no evidence that the problem is fixed yet!

I am only buying Semerscheims panels for now because of this issue. Their panels fit good and the price is right, but more importantly, there have been no reports of similar problems on their panels. When you invest several thousand dollars in a new front end, as well as the body and body work associated with it, you expect not to have these type of problems. Furthermore, I think that it is reasonable to expect that Corvette Image step up to the plate imediately to resolve this problem. This is not like this is the first time that this EXACT same problem has happened, and the symptoms are always the same, a gooey, uncured resin underneath the blisters.

I don't care how much gelcoat you pile on top of the panel, if you have uncured resin in the panel, it is only a matter of time before it will blister up through the Gelcoat and topcoat. I am not beating up on Jerry, but my money is too dear to me risk it on a panel that has a sporadic history of failing, especially if he is not stepping up to the plate imediately. It is clear that this is not an epedimic problem with his panels, and I would think that the problem could be called sporadic and random at worst. This would lead me to believe that the problem is not a problem with his overall manufacturing process, but rather a failure of either a mechanical or manual mixing of the catalyst. It sounds like either insufficient MEKP is being used, or it is not being mixed sufficiently. I am not privy to what his manufacturing technique is, but I would guess that he uses some sort of automated resin mixing and application, and that he is having sporadic problems with it. Unfortunately, there is probably no good way to know when the mix is poor, unless it is sufficiently weak on the MEKP that the overall panel does not cure properly.
I have under-catalyzed resin before, and it has failed to cure properly, but I have never had resin that cured in places, but not in others.

Regards, John McGraw

[Stan E.]

Where was this panel made?

Was this panel made in oregon? Thanks

[David Dawdy]

Re: How Much of the Body Was Replaced?

In my opinion, you are a fool to purchase from Corvette Image. Don't waste your money and then time attempting to get resolution. All of us who purchased these products just have to bend over and hope from here on no one purchases these problematic panels. I purchased a 67 front clip and two rear quarters years ago, must have been around 2000. It was the first 'black' glass and I thought it was beautiful. It sat in my garage for about one year, then was put on my 67 and painted. Within six months it began to blister. painter and others in the area knew of CI and as a result would not repair or repaint. I spent many hours attempting to contact CI to no avail. Since then, sermershein began offering mid year panels and based on the 1960 panels I have purchased I would recommend no other. I was so disappointed with my 67 400 a/c car that it hid in the garage and I finally sold it for much less than the market because of the expense required to remove the panels and redo the body and paint. I have heard of other restorers who had the same problems and had to eat repairs of very expensive restorations.

[Edward Boyd]

Re: Who owns the problem when the paint job bliste

Multiple defendants in more than one jurisdiction (state)? For the amount of money you are talking about you are wasting your time even if you can find a lawyer willing to tackle the problem. The recovery just isn't there.

[Joe C.]

Re: How Much of the Body Was Replaced?

John,

Agree, and that is probably why they remain in business (because it is a sporadic problem). At least "J" offers replacements as recompense. Scott Marzahl is correct in that that the problem is moisture related, and that agrees with what the manufacturer claims. I also have experienced the phenomenon, and dealt with it.
If precautions are taken, recurrence of the phenomenon can be forestalled, if not avoided entirely.
The alternative is to remove and discard, install competitors panels, and repaint.

Joe

[Richard S.]

Re: How Much of the Body Was Replaced?

I had the same problems with my 67 panels bought from Corvette Image in 1994. Only the panels and the bonding agent bought from Corvette Image blistered. And this is after the car sat in the sun for two summers curing before we painted it.We gelcoated the car before painting. The car blistered when I left it in the sun with a cover on it for a few days. Because we had several different people involved with restoring the car, I did not pursue the problem with anyone. I chalked it up to a learning experience. I have been driving the car as is and my intent is to repaint at some time. I'm disturbed to hear that the Corvette Image panels are still blistering and even more disturbed to hear that gelcoating will not necessarily solve the problem if the car is subjected to any humidity. If anyone is still buying Corvette Image panels they must be nuts. Will gelcoating BOTH sides of the panel help??

[Terry F.]

Re: How Much of the Body Was Replaced?

I purchased a panel from them once and it was sticky??? That disappointed me. It has been sitting for a couple years without paint on it. It is hard as a rock now. This problem sounds sporadic.

I have purchased panel adhesive from this company too. If you look in the can of the panel adhesive you will find these globs of clear gell. I am nearly certain they use the same stuff when forming a panel but pump it through a chop gun (used to apply resin mixed with fiberglass rope). I would bet you that pocket of clear goo that Gary ran into was that same stuff that I see in the can. I should post a picture of it. I have some. If you mix it very well, it all becomes a homogeneous mixture of dark resin and short fiber.

Terry

[Chris Patrick]

Re: Not In My Opinion...

I've seen many used '63-'67 front ends on eBay for $600 - $1000. I assume that most have several old repairs and probably need more. But with the matched die pieces currently made (they are not true press molded) costing $3500 - $4000 and then the costs of repairs and repainting a year later when it is outgassing, I think you can afford to do some repair work up front on the used pieces.

The issue stems much from the panels not being press molded. PM panels were pressed under several tons of pressure, heated to cure, and then cut to finish. The panels today are formed in matched dies under only enoguh pressure to hold the dies together, a few hundred pounds or so, and are not heated to cure in the mold as far as I know.

Their big draw is the color, fit, and the finished look on both sides when compared to the old panels from places like Eckler's, ACS, and others. But I am beginning to wonder if the quality merits the price.

[Richard S.]

Re:Gelcoating both sides of panel.

If we gelcoat BOTH sides of a CI panel.....will this work to keep humidity from causing bubbles?? I would really appreciate opinions here because I want to repaint the car.....thanks.

[Scott Marzahl]

Re:Gelcoating both sides of panel.

Hi Rick,
This is a very darn good question since I do not want to have any issues with the back half of my car. Of course you would need to somehow ensure that there was not any moisture trapped in the panel at the time the backside would be sealed. I'd rather use an epoxy primer than Gel Coat to seal the backside if it is even an option. Regardless, it will be a PITA either way.