Alignment woes, again...

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  • Duke W.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • January 1, 1993
    • 15229

    #16
    Re: Alignment woes, again...

    Power steering systems were widely criticized back in the fifties and sixties due to overboosting and lack of feel. Since the Corvette power steering system came from the passenger car, it suffers the same deficiencies. The Corvette's manual steering system with good alignment has good feel and reasonble effort. The fast ratio is great, but low speed effort is high.

    We've also been "spoiled" by modern cars, which generally have good sensitivity (not to little, not too much), linearity, self centering torque, and reasonable effort without being overboosted, so hopping into your vintage Corvette on the weekend after driving a modern vehicle all week can be a shock.

    High caster promotes more self-centering steering wheel torque, but unless the car has standard power steering, one to two degrees is about the most that can be designed in to avoid excess effort and kickback without boost, but low caster and high boost don't make a very good system.

    A good steering system should be precise and linear, and as lateral g increases the self aligning torque should increase. As you reach the limit of adhesion, non-linearity should set in and self aligning torque should decrease slightly, which tells you that the limit of adhesion is approaching.

    Even modern cars can have vastly different steering feel. My '88 MBZ steering is relatively numb on center and slow (but precise), so if you sneeze on the autobahn at 130 you don't steer off into the weeds, but it communciates reasonable tire information at high lateral g. To maintain straight travel or a line in a curve you actually must move the wheel slightly. All together - a decent system for a touring sedan, but not too good on a racetrack. It has about 10 degrees caster.

    My '91 MR2 (six degrees caster) has an electro-hydraulic power steering system that provides boost based on speed. Above 80 MPH there is no boost. It is extremely precise and sensitive and nearly as communciative as an old 911, but without feeding back every little bit of road texture. Unlike the Merc you don't actually move the wheel to maintain a straight line or line in a corner - just vary pressure on it - like how you handle the stick on a jet fighter. It's like your brain is connected directly to the wheels - altogether a very good system for a serious sports car and excellent on a race track. The one situation where I never liked it was Willow Spring's Turn 8, which is flat in fifth at about 110 MPH. It feels like heavy push, but it's probably the lack of boost. My Cosworth Vega (manual steering zero caster because the adjustment range won't allow postive caster with -1 camber) feels much more neutral (with less effort) at the same speed in Turn 8. Nothing's perfect!

    Since I swap the Merc and MR2 back and forth every six months as my daily driver I have to virtually learn to drive all over again, but that makes life interesting.

    Duke

    Comment

    • GL Anderson

      #17
      Re: Alignment woes, again...

      Duke my Cosworth Vega with the quick steering gear box (not an RPO) has +4.5 caster with -1 camber. I used the offset upper contol arm bushings that were made for Vegas back in the day to take out the excess neg camber and put them in the reverse direction to gain neg camber allowing more positive caster. Made a world of difference in a car that was a very competitive autocrosser to begin with. I was lucky enough to win 83 first place trophys with that car. I used a little toe out to help dial out some of the initial understeer. Drove fine on the highway but it was a real treat to park with the quick steeing box and positive caster. GL

      Comment

      • Duke W.
        Beyond Control Poster
        • January 1, 1993
        • 15229

        #18
        Re: Alignment woes, again...

        I used just one of those Moog offset upper bushings on one side to get more caster. Using just one in the proper orientation will move the upper ball joint slightly to the rear. It is also my experience that as you dial in more negative camber, you loose positive caster.

        With the one offset upper bushing I ran -1 camber but could only get about zero caster. Then I increased the camber to -2, but could only get -3/4 caster, which is the nominal factory spec, but I'm going to go back to -1, zero because I'm getting too much inside tire wear, and I am probably done running track events. I also run 1/16" toe-out, which is the '76 Vega spec. Prior years' radial tire spec was slightly positive.

        I also have the fast ratio steering gear. It was a planned RPO, but then cancelled at the last minute, but some parts were built. In the late seventies the part number for the steering gear showed up in the Chevrolet Power Manual, so I bought one an installed it.

        Many years ago in a quest for more caster I swapped the upper control arms side to side. I dialed in minimum caster, which was 6 degrees. The turn in was instantaneous, but it had enough kickback to damned near break your arms. It was a short lived, but interesting experiment. Actually, zero caster gives good steering feel and reasonble effort, but doesn't give the negative camber gain that helps offset body roll to keep the tire vertical relative to the road.

        Your CV must be a mutant if you can get that much positive caster with -1 camber with just the offset bushings. I considered relocating the upper ball joints rearward on the control arms to get maybe +1, but I don't think I'll ever get around to actually doing it.

        Duke

        Comment

        • GL Anderson

          #19
          Re: Alignment woes, again...

          I don't know if it is a mutant or not I did buy it new and bought the steering box soon after. Bill Howell gave me lots of help in setting the car up including the instructions on how to adjust the ECM both high and low speed. I had the guys in the shop align it and those are the numbers they gave me. Can't say they would have any reason to tell me wrong. I can get - 2 on the camber but dont' think it does much. I do have the V8 Monza front bar on it and still it doesn't understeer now that the front end is dialed in. GL

          Comment

          • Duke W.
            Beyond Control Poster
            • January 1, 1993
            • 15229

            #20
            Re: Alignment woes, again...

            As part of my development effort I installed the 1 1/16" base Monza front bar. As I expected it understeered excessively, but reduced roll. So I installed an aftermarket rear bar that was also 1/16" larger than OE. Bingo, no more than about 3 deg. per g roll and dead neutral.

            If you are a member of CVOA you have probably read about all my engine tuning - vacuum advance, recurved centrifugal, reindexed cams, and EFI tuning... The CVOA web site has a dyno sheet - 80 percent torque bandwidth from 1900-7200, 122 SAE corrected RWHP at 7000 - one RWHP per cubic inch. The short block is OE, and the actual measured CR is 8.2:1. It lives on nothing more than regular unleaded. Granted I was "cheating" running "track trim" - no fan and open exhaust - but it showed the potential of tuning.

            It easily pulls from 1500 in fifth and 1000 in third. I can drag it down to 200 in first, floor the throttle and it just takes off. The analog EFI is part of it. With my setup, it's the most flexible engine I've ever experienced.

            Duke

            Comment

            • Verle R.
              Extremely Frequent Poster
              • March 1, 1989
              • 1163

              #21
              Re: Alignment woes, again...

              Duke,

              I'm glad you have had no complaints about the combination.

              In the deep dark past I worked for Goodyear. We did get complaints about similar combinations. A wider wheel resolved the complaints and provided better handling.

              A direct close example: my brother installed Pirelli 205HR15s on stock 65 wheels and complained that it drove like a pig. Installed wider rims and it cured the problem.

              I still suggest Tim find someone to swap tires/wheels to at least eliminate that question. No cost, just a little work.

              Verle

              Comment

              • Duke W.
                Beyond Control Poster
                • January 1, 1993
                • 15229

                #22
                Re: Alignment woes, again...

                I think we discussed the situation before. I also installed a set of 205HR-15 Cinturatos on my OE '63 wheels in 1968. The car had no steering anomalies, but it didn't have as much grip as with the prior 6.70-15 Michelin X radials.

                Remouting the tires on '68 7" Corvette wheels greatly increased the grip, which is what I had expected in the first place.

                The Pirelli Pocket Guide of the era emphasized that wide tires must be mounted on suitably wide wheels, and that's what led me to remount them on the wider wheels, though I don't recall that in that era tire manufactures published recommended wheel width ranges as they do today. Recommended wheel widths are now promulagated by The Tire and Rim Association for all standard sizes, and as a rule, being on the high side of the range yields the best handling.

                Duke

                Comment

                • Joe R.
                  Extremely Frequent Poster
                  • March 1, 2002
                  • 1350

                  #23
                  Re: Alignment woes, again...

                  Hi Tim:

                  I have just have a couple comments to add to the extensive responses you have received so far.

                  First, my 67 SB with power steering steers beautifully, so I don't think the problem is necessarily characteristic of the design. My car has Pirelli radials on stock Ralley wheels. I do not know the alignment settings because they are unchanged from when I bought the car a few years ago. The car is a real pleasure to drive and is very well behaved on a wide variety of road conditions.

                  Second, I believe that I have read that the spring that sets the sensitivity of the the control valve was different (less sensitive) for Corvettes than for passenger cars. If your control valve has ever been replaced, it is possible that you have a passenger car version installed.

                  I'm not an expert on this topic but maybe Duke or someone else can comment on what the expected effect would be from installing a passenger car control valve in a C2.

                  Comment

                  • Timothy B.
                    Very Frequent User
                    • January 1, 2004
                    • 438

                    #24
                    Re: Alignment woes, again...

                    Following up on this: I think by measurement my toe in was not what it should be, and may have been either neutral (zero toe) or slightly toe out. I readjusted the toe, and actually ended up with too much toe, more like 3/16" or so. But, during a drive, the feel is better with regards to my original complaint that this thread is discussing. I wonder from a general standpoint what the feel is to the driver when toe is increased, decreased, changed from pos to neg etc.??

                    Comment

                    • Duke W.
                      Beyond Control Poster
                      • January 1, 1993
                      • 15229

                      #25
                      Re: Alignment woes, again...

                      Toe settings have a significant effect on transient response. Toe-in is usually associated with increased transient understeer, toe-out with less transient understeer or even transient oversteer. (That's why autocrossers often run front and/or rear toe-out even if the OEM specs are toe-in.)

                      Normal road forces cause slight deflections of suspension and steering components, and toe settings are usually selected by OEMs such that these deflections cause toe to tend toward zero.

                      The direction of these deflections depends on the control arm design (including bushing stiffness), steering linkage design, and whether the front wheels are driven or not.

                      An interesting case is that pre-'76 Vegas with radial tires nominal recommended setting is slight toe-in. In 1976 it was changed to slight toe-out, and I never figured out why.

                      I can't say what toe-out will do on a C2 as I always ran slight toe-in with radials and saw no need to experiment. Since toe is easy to change you can try different settings from say 1/8" toe-in to 1/8" toe-out and decide what works best for you.

                      It's also VERY IMPORTANT on IRS Corvettes to have total rear toe equally distributed between both sides. This is tough to measure in your garage, but should be readily apparent if the car is set up on a four wheel alignment rack with a competent tech.

                      Experimenting with front toe-in should only be done after you have verified that all other front and rear alignment settings are within the correct range including side to side differences.

                      Duke

                      Comment

                      • Timothy B.
                        Very Frequent User
                        • January 1, 2004
                        • 438

                        #26
                        Re: Alignment woes, again...

                        After reverifying my caster and camber settings are set equal side to side, I experimented a bit with some toe settings. My camber is about .8 deg neg both sides front. Caster I am not a sure about but I believe I have it at about 2.0 each side. I intend to take the car to a shop and have the verify what it is set at. But, I have determined that with about 1/8" toe in the feel of the steering is better, probably as good as a car of this age would have with only 2 deg caster. I does feel better with 1/8" toe in rather than the tiny amount of toe I had initially. So, I think I will leave it as is and concentrate on other problems now! Thanks for the good advice on this topic!

                        Comment

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