Can we talk??

[Roy B.]

I would love to get this discussion going about accessories on our beloved Corvettes.
Many may know that I love GM dealer accessories in my 55 Corvette.This is not about me!!! But I posted an accessory for the C2, a GM dealer fire extinguisher for the C2 and up.
Now NCRS awards extra points for carrying a fire extinguisher ,adding seat belts and a NCRS sticker , now that's great no problem, but are NOT factory installed on some years.
Here is the problem C2 and newer Corvettes GM did offer an accessory hwy kit having a fire extinguisher. Early C1's dint come with seat belts but later was offered as a option from the factory, then dealers offered owners to buy and install these NEW seat belts as a accessory from that period C1's.

1.Should NCRS not recognize the accessory C2 fire extinguisher sold by GM dealers , but is OK if you have pep-boys?
Yes you can carry a newer one ,old one may not be good
2. Should NCRS not recognize the period C1's belts .
But anything's OK that works.
My feelings is that if a GM dealers offered as accessory a fire extinguisher for C2's and seat belts for early C1's would you install or carry a real GM dealer item , and not the after market items and WHY NCRS does??

[John D.]

Re: Can we talk??

Roy, One of my many jobs is that I am a property manager. Just found out that any fire extinguisher that is older than 1984 can not be refilled and tagged. I have a mess of older fire extingishers-one of them is an original C2 one for my 63. I can not get it refilled around here legally. I believe the whole purpose of the fire extinguisher rule is a safety issue. I think it started with AACA but I may be wrong. Anyhow I do believe we may be in trouble getting our old John D.

[Richard B.]

[Roy B.]

Re: Can we talk??John&Richard

You missing the point I don't ever see NCRS accepting accessories and don't ever care about that, my Corvette is my Corvette not NCRS's. If you had the original tires on your Corvette should you loose points? you know you would never run them on the road going for a PV award. If you had the original fire extinguisher in the Corvette would you depend on it NO! But it's original for the Corvette.
Your going to change the tires if you decide to drive it and carry a NEW extinguisher in case you ever needed it.
Judge and ask to see the GM extinguisher not pep-boys but carry a new one ( has any one ever been asked by a judge to put out a fire with your new one?)

[Jack H.]

Re: Can we talk??John&Richard

Well, a restored '63 coupe just passed PV on its first attempt at the Las Vegas Regional and it was wearing FIVE ORIGINAL, non-DOT, Firestone 6.70x15 black wall tires. Apparently, the NTL had no fear associated with climbing in as co-pilot and running the car on the street with the correct/original/aged bias ply rubber installed for the PV...

As to the fire extinguisher, yes it's there for safety purposes and to that extent, fresh/new is better than aged/original and dubious in performance. Many of these cars show up 'fresh' (and unproven) from their restoration 'hibernation' with the NCRS judging field being essentially the first place workmanship is 'tested'...

The club has rules for judging and right or wrong they focus on the car's configuration as it left the assembly line repleat with then current dealer prep ABSENT any owner/dealer inspired additions or deletions.

Like any set of rules, there are always exceptions and we have them too. Consider the early straight axle cars that shipped with the engine stamp pad painted. Our rules require the owner to deviate from a complete/correct restoration and leave the pad unpainted so judges can assess the underlying surface texture (broach marks) of the stamp pad. So, the addition of safety components isn't the only exception to the general rule...

But, that's the system NCRS has and it's been around for quite some time. It's obviously not the cup of tea that every Corvette owner wants to drink from and we don't hold a gun to everyone's head. But, if and when a car is presented for Flight Judging, we sure try to enforce club rules uniformly.

[Justin B.]

Re: Can we talk??John&Richard

I see both sides when it comes to both original GM accessories and later safety accessories. Not sure about the NCRS logo giving extra points even though I will gladly take any extra credit that I can get.
What I don't understand is when the cars left the factory they left without the hubcaps installed. NCRS has made a judging exception to have the caps on the car instead of in the trunk like they originally appeared. But, on big brake cars, they expect the elephant ears and air ducts to be in the trunk just like they were when they left the factory. Why can't these be installed for judging without getting deductions? Besides, they were right next to the hubcaps when they left the factory. Who wants to see a rare big brake car with the little metal covers on them? Personally, I think they look better with the racey looking elephant ears and scoops installed which also makes the really neat screens visible. I think if you are going to make an exception on some things like this then you need to consider making exceptions on other similar things. By the way, when I have my car judged, I will have the hubcaps and the big brake goodies on!

[John D.]

Re: Can we talk??John&Richard

HI Justin, Did you start up the BB car FI unit yet. By now it's out of warranty.
I am not going to get in a discussion about judging accessories. But hear this one. If you were ever in a Corvette that caught on fire like I was you would want a first class fire extinguisher not some antique dated 63 POC like in my car. Forget about having it judged-rare excessory or not. Who cares. Just have it incase you need it. I had a 63 (sold it) that when I pushed the cigar lighter in it stuck and fried the wiring harness and smoke poured out everywhere. Luckily I had a battery disconnect and a new fire extinguisher from Sears or the car would have been burnt to the ground in short order. John

[Justin B.]

Re: Can we talk??John&Richard

John,
I still havn't cranked the car up. I'm not worried about a warranty...thats why I sent it to you....you da' man John, you da' man!!

[Mike M.]

Re: Can we talk??John&Richard

justin: review the ncrs philosophy----"as it left the asembly line with normal dealer prep". hubcap installation would fall under the "normal dealer prep". Ears and scoops, in my mind, would be up to the owner to install in the event the owner was gonna try his hand at sebring or daytona. otherwise, leaving the scoops and ears in the trunk, should the RPO car lead a non-motorsport life, would keep the salt and snow and rain from damaging the brake components during average winter driving in most parts of the USA. Doubt your RPO will take much of a hit with the ears and scoops installed on the judging field. go for it. mike

[Dennis C.]

There has been, is, and always will be those...

...that try to chip away, make exceptions, complain, whine and try to re-write or modify the NCRS Judging Standard, which was initially written in 1974. Some have "split off" from NCRS because they didn't agree with our approach. No problem - have it "your way". We have a Judging Standard - it has worked quite well for about 33 years. It's a little like our U.S. Constitution, if you don't care for it, there are other options out there - but, please, stop whining.

One of the most important and valuable assets NCRS has IS its Judging Standard. I wouldn't change it for any reason. If you change, excuse, modify or allow any exception - the fact is, you no longer have a Judging Standard.

If necessary, please excuse my emotion about this subject.

Dennis Clark, National Judging Chairman 1988-1996

[Rick Gower]

Re: There has been, is, and always will be those..

Dennis,

There is nothing for anyone to excuse you on your comments. You are absolutely correct about the value of our judging standards without which, our organization would be just like any other car club. Your contributions to our organization are and have been monumental. I have enjoyed the cars you have shared at various shows and your articles in the Restorer throughout the years and your posts on this Board. To me you are a real hobbyist who enjoys the cars and the people associated with them. I really appreciate your many and vast contributions to our organization. Thank you!

Rick Gower
NCRS # 6398

[Dick W.]

Re: There has been, is, and always will be those..

Dipstick, I have always told you there is no excuse for you Seriously I have to agree with Dennis. Look at some of the other clubs that are now using the NCRS Judging Guidelines for the basis of their judging program. Maybe ain't perfect, but I challange anyone to tell me who has a better program.

I have restored other makes of cars using the guidelines that were provided me and have never seen anything that has the documentation and research that has been incorporated into NCRS manuals.

[Lee S.]

Gone too far?

I think this whole discussion on GM accessories has gone too far. What is the definition of a dealer accessory? All GM Dealers have access to hundreds of thousands of "GM Parts". Does every one of these qualify as an accessory? Hardly not! I respect the opinion of everyone in this organization. Certainly, there are folks in here with more experience, history, knowledge, and accomplishments than me. However, IMHO, this entire "accessory" discussion is nothing more than a distraction to those of us who monitor this board on a daily basis to learn something. God knows, there are numerous other forums out there if all you want to talk about is nonsense. My apology to you Mr. Braatz if I offended you. I'll get off of my soapbox now.

[Roy B.]

Re: There has been, is, and always will be Q:

I just new asking a question about the NCRS JM was to simple.
Q. Should a GM extinguisher be used for judging over an after market one
Now that NCRS gives extra points for having one?

I'm not whining ,chipping away or care ether way to rewrite the JM .I agree %99 with Dennis's statement . "BUT"
If anyone dares to change,excuse,modify,or allow any exceptions to the JM that is the kiss of death even tho I cant recognize the JM from 1974 to todays JM.
So I surrender!! I never cared much about the JM but what NCRS stood for meeting great people and owning a wonderful Corvette.

[Chuck S.]

Surrender?!...

Nobody agrees with you because you refuse to acknowledge a simple fact...the allowed extinguisher is for SAFETY, and NOT for originality and/or judging.

The extinguisher is NOT A JUDGED ITEM...you lose no points for not having one. Just as free bonus points are added to the judging score to encourage DRIVING a car, so are bonus points allowed for a battery cut-off, an NCRS sticker, and a fire extinguisher, none of which had anything to do with what a Corvette looked like when it was delivered. The intent is that the extinguisher has a reasonable expectation of being functional.

Actually, the call on the extinguisher will be made by local judges; if it's cylindrical, red, and says it's a fire extinguisher, it may get the bonus credit. If you get a conflagration under your hood, and your 40 year old extinguisher goes phffft!!!, then you'll be wishing to heck you had a new one from Pep Boys, and the bigger the better.

This is the very reason the TIM&JGs are hard to get changed. If they could be changed on just any whim, owners could probably get bonus points for having a trunk full of Corvette shaped whiskey decanters. You'll say, "Oh, those weren't made or sold by GM!"...yeah, well, they were licensed by GM, and those dealer accesories weren't made by GM either.

Try putting out an engine fire with a old whiskey bottle; depending on the contents, it may be more effective than a 40 year old extinguisher...If you could fill it up fast enough, you might be able to cool the engine compartment a little.