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  • Jeffrey S.
    Extremely Frequent Poster
    • May 31, 1988
    • 1879

    Judging thoughts

    Hello all. Some random thoughts on the judging process. This past weekend I had the opportunity to judge at the Michigan Chapter meet. This was the first time I have judged and I thoroughly enjoyed it, learned a lot form the very knowledgeable person with whom I was partnered, and would certainly do it next time. There are some things about the judging process that bother me and I want to share them with you all and see if others feel the same way I do. Let me say first that I in no way want to demean the process and I am not finding fault with it, I only want to express some thoughts. First, I have been thinking about this for some time and it really hit home during the judging. That is that a base, unoptioned car has an unfair advantage over a highly optioned car. I saw this up close as we judged an very base '68 big block. As we got to the sections on power brakes, power steering, etc. we just gave full credit to those items automatically since they were not there. When we did the next car that had these items we judged them taking the appropriate deductions when necessary. Since all cars start off with the same number of points, the highly optioned car has more opportunity to lose points and end up with a lower score. My answer to this is to start off all cars with a base number and add points for options like these (not options that simply change an existing feature like an optional engine, or transmission). Then you can make deductions when necessary and the end result is still a percentage of the total but the optioned car starts off with a higher total.

    On one of the '68's we judged there was an item that I know was wrong on this car and right on a '69 next to it which was next to be judged and because the judging manual had it wrong , we had to deduct from the '69 and give credeit to the '68. The item was the small hose and clamps that attach the fuel filter to the return line. The manual says that this hose is fastened by 2 tower clamps on both cars and I know that they are fastened with band clamps. The AIM clearly shows and calls out for '69 the part numbers for band clamps, every resource book including M.F. Dobbins, Bizzoko, and my own experience with my '69 which I purchase at when it was a year old, indicate that I am correct. When I questioned the team leader about this I was told that if the judging manual indicates that tower clamps were used than that is what you go by. Neither my partner or the team leader had direct experience with this so they did the best they could and relied on the book. I accepted this because I know that we were all doing our best and were honestly trying to do the best for the owner and, again, I am only sharing some thoughts and no indictment is meant.

    The last item was the subjectivity of condition and originality points when the originality is based not a date code or part number but on the level of restoration. I heard the term "overrestored" used many times, on the other side, the term "aged" or "deteriorated" used. Many times I wanted to say "How do you know where overrestored begins and originality ends?" It's really up to the judge isn't it.

    I know that this is a long post but I really would like to know how anyone out there sees these issues. I want to restate that all of the people I worked with, the other judges, the team leader, the judging chairman, all were great and I know there is only so much knowledge that can be expected and as long as if an owner has an issue with a deduction he/she is listened to and a just decision made that is about all you can do. Thanks for listening.
    Jeff
  • Patrick H.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • December 1, 1989
    • 11608

    #2
    Re: Judging thoughts

    Jeff,

    It was good to see you this past weekend. I'm probably one of the few that know not only who your parter was this weekend (for the rest of you, it wasn't me) but also the cars you judged. I judged them too, but from the bottom side.

    Your base motor-no option automatic-points-garnering car is not at all unfamiliar with me, as it's how my car gets its 96% score. In addition, from being involved in the hobby for years I knew that this was the case - that the low option cars are both easier to restore and also benefit from the scoring system. Your proposal is interesting to add points as we add options, but I suspect it would increase the complexity of scoring and add to math errors. Since in theory every car at a meet could have a different "total" number of points assigned it will deviate from the KISS principle, which I would suspect is where the current system originated. Also with our current system the points assigned to any one line item differ by year group. So, as an example there may be 12 total points for an AC compressor for the 72 model year, but only 8 in the 76 model year. I suspect that "true parity" would call for adjusting those type of differences across all years as well. In the end, it would likely call for a complete revamp of the scoring for all years.

    Regarding your clamps, there is no reason why you had to deduct the 69 if you knew it was configured correctly. I would have given the 68 the benefit of the JG and not deducted, but I would not have taken points on the 69 just because of a JG error. This is a good example of judge's knowledge "trumping" the JG.

    As you note, a lot of the actual points are based on a judge's call. That is part of the reason for judging schools as well as the advantage of having more experienced judges present. Don't ever be afraid to ask someone else!

    Patrick
    Vice-Chairman (West), Michigan Chapter NCRS
    71 "deer modified" coupe
    72 5-Star Bowtie / Duntov coupe. https://www.flickr.com/photos/124695...57649252735124
    2008 coupe
    Available stickers: Engine suffix code, exhaust tips & mufflers, shocks, AIR diverter valve broadcast code.

    Comment

    • Gerard Q.
      Very Frequent User
      • February 1, 2000
      • 284

      #3
      Re: Judging thoughts

      Great post Jeff. I too have often thought about the disadvantages a highly optioned car (as well as a restored vehicle) faces in the judging process . I like your idea of adding points per option but based on my observations change comes very slowly if at all in this organization.

      Comment

      • Jeffrey S.
        Extremely Frequent Poster
        • May 31, 1988
        • 1879

        #4
        Re: Judging thoughts

        Jerry and patrick:
        Thanks for your comments. Change does come slowly but that is a good thing. Rash decision that are not thought out properly generally are wrong decisions. I don't expect any action by the powers that be; I just wanted to open a discussion. Another way to adjust for options would be to simply circle the items not present because they are not optioned and deduct the full amount of points for those items from the starting point of 4500(?) points. Then deductions as normal would be taken and a percentage could be ascertained based on the adjusted gross. Keep the comments coming!
        Jeff

        Comment

        • Stephen B.
          Very Frequent User
          • April 1, 1988
          • 876

          #5
          Re: Judging thoughts

          Jeff,

          I'm relatively new to the judging process myself with being involved over the past couple of years. I also find it rewarding and a wonderful opportunity to learn every aspects of these cars.

          Your idea regarding the judging points is compelling; however, I'm not sure if percentage scores will substantially change to warrent the potential complication. One can have a car judged many times over at various events and the scores usually vary within a percentage point or two. I've had cars judged at a chapter a certain score and receive a worse score than at a regional. Some items were deducted and some were not that should have been. It's part of interpretation and even human error. But my overall scores stayed in the same range.

          One aspect of judging that I find interesting is condition. I car that's completely restored is judged at a different standard than one that's unrestored. Case in point, my judging team member and I crawled under an unrestored chassis only to see new, correct rear trailing arm shims that were very prominent because they were new. We counted off a point because they looked too new compared to the rest of the chassis. The owner should have "weathered" them. The deduction did not set well with me, but it was only one point. If the chassis had been completely restored, then points would have been counted off for anything that did not look new.

          In my opinion, the exact percentage score is not that important as long as its within a certain range for the level of car. However, I can't resist chatting scores with fellow members. My '86 convertible has a regional 98.1 and hopefully will obtain at least a 97.0 at nationals in order to obtain a McClellan. Who knows, with a little more cleaning, maybe it'll make it to 99.0. lolol.

          Comment

          • Allan J. Wicklund

            #6
            Re: Judging thoughts

            Thanks for bringing this topic up Jeff. I'm blessed to own a very highly optioned 67 Coupe which I drive regularly. Because of all the extra effort to attain a Top Flight score I've been discouraged from trying. If the playing field were a bit more level than the attempt to try might be more tempting. Al W.

            Comment

            • Paul B.
              Very Frequent User
              • April 30, 1995
              • 482

              #7
              Re: Judging thoughts

              Jeff, yeah, in judging since '96 and now having over 301 "judging points" since that time, I too have issues and concerns. Kinda some "reasons" why I kinda "semi-retired" when it comes to judging. One of my biggest beefs(and I love judging chassis)is how on the '73-'82 cars the "chassis" team spends(or can spend)more of their time judging the headlight actuators, related hoses, A.I.R. pump and related hardware, radiator, shroud & related pieces when I feel I'm "hurried" to judged those BEFORE I can start underneath. I have a four option '68 327/350hp Four Star Bowtie coupe(Windsor '04)with several Top Flights(low, low Top Flight)and have been deducted for the chrome cap on the oil spout(which is correct & original), but the JG says "bigblocks" have the "chrome cap"...doesn't say anything about smallblocks...so I get deducted. My car also has a genuine GM replacement exhaust(not welded like original, but clamped, from probably late seventies)and I've had a 30% deduction all the way up to 100% deduction!!!! And this is for a GM replacement carbon steel exhaust system, not your typical, found on nearly every car stainless or aluminized system!!!!! Another thing bothers me---how can we have a "full" deduct on a battery(non GM/AC Delco, NAPA, Autozone)when there is a "battery" there, but yet on like a windshield partial credit is given for a "non-GM, non-GM vendor" windshield?????

              Comment

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