The Five Aspects/ Axes/ Facets of Originality - NCRS Discussion Boards

The Five Aspects/ Axes/ Facets of Originality

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  • Patrick H.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • December 1, 1989
    • 11608

    The Five Aspects/ Axes/ Facets of Originality

    Someone recently asked what the five axes/aspects of originality were that I referenced in a recent post. This is the type of information that should be in a FAQ page on this site (hint, hint) since it is such an important piece of how we judge any item.

    I referred to them to a recent thread with a response by Jack Humphrey. As I've had to reference it twice in the past week, I thought it might be worth posting. If two are asking, more are thinking it....

    "This has come up before in prior threads, but here goes again...

    When judges inspect cars, they look to the NCRS Judging Reference Manual for advice on point deductions (Standard Deductions section) AND to the Judging Guide for that year car (sometimes individual National Team Leaders publish 'how to' advice on specific deductions to take for this/that). If there is NO mention of how to deal with a given deviation from know factory original typical factory production, judges are left to make their own decision(s) regarding how many points to deduct.

    Maybe ten years ago, the National Judging Chairman issued guidelines on Originality which were taught in various judging schools. The guidelines teach judges view originality in a five axis universe: Finish, Date, Installation, Configuration and Completeness. To the extent the scoring line item deviates from known typical factory originality in each axis, deduct 20% of the available originality points for that difference.

    Now, while this sounds simple, it's often a bigger job that it appears to be. On the Flight Score sheets there are individual line items and a given line item may involve more than one part. For example, a left hand, front bumper not only includes the major item (the bumper itself), it also includes minor item(s) like the fasteners holding the bumper to the car.

    So, there's a certain amount of judgement call involved in applying the 5-axis rule. How many of the points associated with that line item do you allocate for the bumper vs. the fasteners?

    But, good judges should be able to work backwards (from their handwritten description regarding the deduction) to re-arrive at the number of points they originally deducted. In other words, there should be some 'science' to the deduction vs. a good ole boy 'feel' as to how many points constitute an appropriate deduction... "

    For the thread, see https://www.ncrs.org/forum/archive29.cgi?review=288456

    Patrick
    Vice-Chairman (West), Michigan Chapter NCRS
    71 "deer modified" coupe
    72 5-Star Bowtie / Duntov coupe. https://www.flickr.com/photos/124695...57649252735124
    2008 coupe
    Available stickers: Engine suffix code, exhaust tips & mufflers, shocks, AIR diverter valve broadcast code.
  • Denny J.
    Very Frequent User
    • November 1, 2000
    • 244

    #2
    Re: The Five Aspects/ Axes/ Facets of Originality

    Hi Patrick
    That is a gray area.Hard to change a Bowtie so the only points are in that gray area.
    Had the air out of my sails but I'm back.
    I will say Patrick I print most of your posts,And making a file.
    You give Great answers.
    Denny72

    Comment

    • Robert Jorjorian

      #3
      Re: The Five Aspects/ Axes/ Facets of Originality

      Patrick please explain your last paragraph describing how a good judge should be able to work backwards to re-arrive at the number of points they deducted.

      Making judging a science may not be humanly possible with an example being errors in manuals.....I think a smart judge is better than a smart manual anyday...even if he is a "good ole'boy",Bob

      Comment

      • Patrick H.
        Beyond Control Poster
        • December 1, 1989
        • 11608

        #4
        Re: The Five Aspects/ Axes/ Facets of Originality

        RJ,

        As noted in my post, that's a quote from Jack Humphrey. You'll have to ask him that one.

        I still wish we had a FAQ section for inquiries and information such as the 5 aspects of originality that we judge.

        Patrick
        Vice-Chairman (West), Michigan Chapter NCRS
        71 "deer modified" coupe
        72 5-Star Bowtie / Duntov coupe. https://www.flickr.com/photos/124695...57649252735124
        2008 coupe
        Available stickers: Engine suffix code, exhaust tips & mufflers, shocks, AIR diverter valve broadcast code.

        Comment

        • Patrick H.
          Beyond Control Poster
          • December 1, 1989
          • 11608

          #5
          Re: The Five Aspects/ Axes/ Facets of Originality

          Denny,

          For a Bowtie car, you should get ALL the 5 areas correct in Flight judging, right?

          FYI, with posts I like, I just cut and paste them into a Word file. Saves paper, and easily searchable.

          Patrick
          Vice-Chairman (West), Michigan Chapter NCRS
          71 "deer modified" coupe
          72 5-Star Bowtie / Duntov coupe. https://www.flickr.com/photos/124695...57649252735124
          2008 coupe
          Available stickers: Engine suffix code, exhaust tips & mufflers, shocks, AIR diverter valve broadcast code.

          Comment

          • Denny J.
            Very Frequent User
            • November 1, 2000
            • 244

            #6
            OH Jack jump in.

            The FAQ is Jack Humphrey

            Comment

            • Robert Jorjorian

              #7
              Sorry , my mistake glad it wasn't you talking . *NM*

              Comment

              • Jack H.
                Extremely Frequent Poster
                • April 1, 1990
                • 9906

                #8
                Well...

                the process is pretty straight forward. You divide the number of originality points allocated to the line item by five and deduct that number of points for each of the five axis attributes (Finish, Date, Installation, Configuration and Completeness) that are violated compared to know typical factory production. The main caveat comes when a given line item on the score sheet is comprised of a plurality of items (major and minor parts).

                Consider a front bumper. There's the bumper itself, plus attaching bolts, washers and sometimes rods. There, you re-allocate the available originality points among the individual parts. You'd do so uniformly if the parts were of rather equal size, weight, importance or non-uniformly if there's an appreciable difference (major + minor components).

                In the case of our bumper example, the bumper itself is the major component of the line item while the fastners are minor items. Say, the originality points associated with that line item were 15. You'd probably assign 10 points to the bumper and 5 points to the fasteners and then apply the 5-axis criteria.

                Specifically, I was saying there ought to be rhyme/reason for a given judge's deduction. He/she, ought to be able to defend/re-create the deduction in a reasonable mathematic process for the owner versus simply saying, "I took 2-points because it felt right..."

                Comment

                • Terry M.
                  Beyond Control Poster
                  • September 30, 1980
                  • 15573

                  #9
                  Re: The Five Aspects/ Axes/ Facets of Originality

                  Patrick is describing the process for FLIGHT JUDGING. Bowtie is different. Do not mix them up.
                  Terry

                  Comment

                  • Denny J.
                    Very Frequent User
                    • November 1, 2000
                    • 244

                    #10
                    Re: Well thank you

                    Jack
                    I love it, Gray area take a stand,Give the best answer you can.And give the same answer each time.
                    But if I was a judge {I am not}"Felt right" is also good answer from an old been around cars alot judge.Denny72

                    Comment

                    • Denny J.
                      Very Frequent User
                      • November 1, 2000
                      • 244

                      #11
                      Re: The Five Aspects/ Axes/ Facets of Originality

                      Hi 3966
                      Flight/Bowtie different.I need a score card.At the top of this page it has a sheet for judging are they the same for F/B.I think Flight is easyer and Bowtie is picky er but it still comes down to "the car is what it is" Dont make a long post I'll reread my book.Dang newbees Denny72

                      Comment

                      • Patrick H.
                        Beyond Control Poster
                        • December 1, 1989
                        • 11608

                        #12
                        Re: The Five Aspects/ Axes/ Facets of Originality

                        Denny,

                        The score sheets for Bowtie are not available prior to judging, nor are your sheets returned afterwards.

                        The car is either "righteous" or it's not.

                        Patrick
                        Vice-Chairman (West), Michigan Chapter NCRS
                        71 "deer modified" coupe
                        72 5-Star Bowtie / Duntov coupe. https://www.flickr.com/photos/124695...57649252735124
                        2008 coupe
                        Available stickers: Engine suffix code, exhaust tips & mufflers, shocks, AIR diverter valve broadcast code.

                        Comment

                        • Dick W.
                          Former NCRS Director Region IV
                          • June 30, 1985
                          • 10483

                          #13
                          Re: The Five Aspects/ Axes/ Facets of Originality

                          Bowtie sheets are simple. Each line has a "yes" or "no" to check that this APPEARS to be the part that left St. Louis or Bowling Green on the car. I have judged carpet and upholstery that was torn and full of holes, but they got a check.

                          There is no place to assess condition as it does not matter.
                          Dick Whittington

                          Comment

                          • Terry M.
                            Beyond Control Poster
                            • September 30, 1980
                            • 15573

                            #14
                            Re: The Five Aspects/ Axes/ Facets of Originality

                            All the "secret" judging information is in The Judging Reference Manual, available from the NCRS book store -- link at the top of the page.

                            We also teach Flight Judging at most Regionals and the National -- it is called the Advanced Judging School. Most NCRS chapters will have judging schools also. We do our best to let everyone in on "the secret."

                            The score sheets that are linked at the top of the page are for Flight Judging. As Patrick says -- the Bowtie score sheets are not available, either before or after judging. Those are really secret, because a car is either original or it is not -- there is nothing anyone can do to make a car more original. That is the reason a car can be judged for Bowtie just once.

                            NO, the difference between Bowtie and Flight Judging is NOT that one is pickier than the other.

                            Yes, one needs a score sheet to keep track of all the differences -- and so far we have only touched on the differences WITHIN NCRS judging. Then there are other orgi****tions which judge Corvettes -- and they do it differently -- even though some of the faces you see are the same. Keep reading here and going to events and judging schools -- it will become clearer piece by piece.
                            Terry

                            Comment

                            • Robert Jorjorian

                              #15
                              Re: Well...

                              "ought to be rhyme/reason to a judges deduction"... There is rhyme/reason for a given judges deduction...reason being in his/her view as being a qualified NCRS judge you deserved a deduction.
                              We dont need a mathmatical process in judging deductions when we can not even correct JG errors in a reasonable time frame.

                              Comment

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