'65 Hubcaps

[Gary B.]

5 Factor vs. Rule 5; need help from Judging chair

Page,

In addition to the ease of often receiving 20% for installation, one could argue that receiving 20% for date is often a freebie as well, since the vast majority of parts don't have dates. And the same goes for completeness. How can most bolts not be complete? But that's the way the 5-factor system works. Looking at it from the perspective of someone restoring a car, I really like the idea of getting those easy percentages.

But I think Jack's point is an important one that needs to be addressed by the people who are responsible for the content in the judging manual and its interpretation and the content of what is taught at the yearly judging school. If there is an obvious diffference, ambiguity or general confusion between Rule 10 and the 5-factor approach for certain parts, then it sure would help those of us who judge using those standards to get some clarification from the people who write the rules.

Gary

[Page C.]

Re: 5 Factor vs. Rule 5; need help from Judging ch

Hi Gary,
This 5 factor system was touched on at Boston in the Judging 201 class. The point was that not every part should necessary carry 20%. One example given was the engine fan. It basically can only be installed on the front of the engine. It is complete and most are not dated. The most important parts would be the confirguration and the finish when trying to determine a deduction. I would think the trim rings that Jack H. mentioned would be similar. They can be installed on the rims with any type clips, they are complete and they are not dated. The confirguration of the clips or trim ring itself and finish are two pretty important pieces to a trim ring. If the contour of the trim ring was incorrect and the finish was that goldish looking stainless, I would be hard pressed to give the other 60% for the items that have little value
Regards,
Page Campbell

[Gary B.]

5 Factors

Page,

The problem with changing the 5 factor system dependng on the part is then you need a different rubric for different parts. Regarding completeness, I can see deducitng for a 5-bladed fan that's missing part of one blade under the completeness item. I like the 5 facor system since it makes the determination of deducts pretty easy and pretty consisten from judge to judge and I think consistency is very important, both among judges and among events.

Gary

[Larry L.]

Re: Originals ARE Chromed!!

I have a set of orig 66 hub caps from my first 66 and they are polished SS. They have been in the atic since 1966 and have shown no sign of pealing down to rusty steel.
There was also a problem with the valve stems that did not protrude threw the hub cap. The valve stems were the correct length.

If you are given credit for a hub cap being present then a set off a Impalla would give you partial credit too.

There is a difference between something that looks like the real thing and something that doesn't even come close.

[Larry L.]

Re: Deducts for repro hubcaps, spinners; judging e

Gary:
You are shooting from the hip - you were not there.

[Jack H.]

Re: Originals ARE Chromed!!

A part doesn't have to be 'rusty steel' to be chromed. Flash/smack chrome can be applied to SS...

I've found quite a few exterior SS pieces that were SS with chrome over. My guess would be a marketing requirement to make adjacent bright trim to have the same color/hue (wheel covers sit pretty close to front/rear bumpers).

On SS windshield molding and various wheel covers I've hand polished, I've noticed the finish is uneven once you start polishing and a grey 'skum' raises as the polishing process progresses. My hunch is that 'skum' is the reminants of the factory original flash/smack chrome remaining on the surface.

BUT, the best way to resolve the question would be to pull the GM drawing and see what's called out there regarding finish. I'd say that's the correct approach to deciding whether or not wheel covers in 1966 were simple polished SS or if they were chromed to boot.

[Larry L.]

Re: Deducts for repro hubcaps, spinners; judging e

Last word - sorry I owned up to the decision.

If you were not there and did not personally see the crude imitations - !.

Four of us agreed with the full deduction. One an observer judge, just starting out at 15 years old could spot the problem. Three of us "no nothing judges" including the team leader all agreed on the deduction.

It failed the origionallity completely - so how can you judge condition. If you put a set of Nova Dog Dish caps on it - would they get partial credit and condition points. Does one get credit for just having any old hub cap?

I also beleive in fair treatment of other owners who had spent time, money and know the difference. To give credit when there should none degrades the entire judging activity. You can argue rules till you are blue in the face, but facts are facts.

If you put down hard cash and didn't know the difference, its too bad you got ripped off. At least take a picture of a the real thing, borrow one, and compare it to what you are looking at before you put your money down.

I am opinated and I know real hardware from bogus when I see it.

A reproduction should sort of look like the real thing, these were obvious at 50 ft and 50 mph.

This thread is closed.

[Gary B.]

We each get a last word...

Larry,

Although I could have been more tactful in what I said or how I said it, I beg to disagree with your characterization. I have indeed been “there” in terms of judging items where the factor 5 and rule 10 might apply. Things like leaf springs, headlamps, air filter elements, fan belts, and many more. And I will be there again. And I would sincerely like to know when the 5-factor system applies and/or when Rule 10 applies and what to do when there is a significance difference in the deductions based on which system one uses.

At present I am admittedly confused. But I doubt that I’m alone. I’m willing to make a friendly bet with you. At my next Chapter meeting in Sept or Oct, I will ask the members who have been flight judges or had their cars flight judged the following: How many of them have heard or of know the 5-factor judging system; How many of them have heard of or know the Rule 10 guideline; And of those who know both, how many of them know when one system applies and not the other or when either can apply?

I will shoot from the hip here and predict: 75% or more will have heard of the 5-factor system; 25% or less will have heard of the Rule 10 guideline; 10% or less will know when to use and not the other. I’m just trying to become a better judge thru research and education and those who know me would say that’s always been my motivation when I ask such questions.

Gary

[Page C.]

5 Factor Judging

Would suggest everyone who is interested in judging try to attend the new Judging Seminar 201 that Ray Morrison is putting on. He did it at the MAC Chapter Judging Event and at Boston.It is very good and explains that some area's are more important than others when making deductions.
Regards,
Page Campbell