Mixing Lacquer Brands...

**Dick W.** · October 22, 2007, 04:21 PM

Re: Mixing Lacquer Brands...

Greg, I did the very same thing many years ago with good results. With that being said, IF you do have a problem with the paint and you did not use PPG primer.....who do you call. You might as well call "Ghost Busters" because that is about all the help you will get. If you do shot PPG over the DuPont, be sure to seal it immediately prior to spraying the top coat.

Bill Williamson, Wayne Womble, and a couple more experienced painters hopefully will chime into this thread.

**Rex T.** · October 22, 2007, 05:19 PM

Re: Mixing Lacquer Brands...

Greg,

After 30 years of service, which included making, testing, color matching, customer service, and managing the QC lab, I am retired from Sherwin Williams Automotive Finishes Corp. Even painted a few cars myself. Yep, SW makes automotive paint in addition to house paint. I agree that in all probability you shouldn't have a problem mixing brands................IFFFFFFFF you scuff the Dupont primer with 600 paper or a Scotch Brite pad prior to topcoating with the PPG paint.

However..............IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF you experience any problem, ANY PROBLEM WHATSOEVER, PPG can determine exactly what you did. From telling you the type of substrate, to the type and brand of primer and how many mils of primer and paint and what you sanded it with. SW did / does it and everyone else does it to protect themselves from unfounded claims.

It's your call.............. Like Dirty Harry said....."Do you feel lucky? Well do ya?"

Sometimes the reward ain't worth the risk, and sometimes it is.

Good luck with it.

Rex

**Greg L.** · October 22, 2007, 05:20 PM

Re: Mixing Lacquer Brands...

Thanks Dick,

Ya I realize that if there is a problem that I'll be pretty much on my own but I think the odds will be in my favor...hope the other guys feel the same.

The paint shop that I spoke with had a few recommendations like a clear coat for instance but didn't mention using a sealer. Not sure what advantage a clear would have on a garage kept car but the sealer must be used because I'm switching brands, right? Is there a thin sealer for lacquer that you would recommend because the one advantage of the lacquer is that it will look thin and I don't want to loose that with a thick sealer.

What color should I use under the silver? It was red oxide so that is why I used it again but maybe a grey sealer would be better....?

This might be a dumb question but does Dupont still make lacquer? The reason I'm asking you guys instead on Dupont is because I had to call PPG three times before I got someone that knew that THEY still made lacquer... I figure that if Dupont still makes it then I should probably use them instead of PPG.

**Chuck S.** · October 22, 2007, 05:41 PM

Re: Mixing Lacquer Brands...

Rex, I never feel comfortable using 600 grit paper before sealer and color. I have a sleeve of 600 I'll probably never use up.

I know that 600 grit will be the tech service guys choice, but it just doesn't seem like it's leaving any "tooth". Fresh 600 grit paper wears down in a minute, and feels like it's just polishing the surface with a sheet of paper. After I'm finished, the surface has more gloss than when I started.

I usually use 400 grit with urethane products, and have no problems. Lacquer IS more scratch sensitive, and 600 grit paper may be a good appplication in that case.

'It's your call.............. Like Dirty Harry said....."Do you feel lucky? Well do ya?" '

LOL. I couldn't have poked ole Greg any better myself.

**Greg L.** · October 22, 2007, 05:56 PM

Re: Mixing Lacquer Brands...

ha ha, ya thanks Chuck, go ahead kick me just as I'm getting back up

I know lacquer will show sand scratches easier than other paints and come to think of it, I think that 600 grit was what the body shop used way back when they shot the BCCC sikkens over my lacquer primer and is probably why it didn't stick to some of the edges... From what I'm learning, you would need tooth to bond those two incompatible layers(lacquer primer and BCCC) but I don't know if this applies to lacquer paint over lacquer primer because does the paint not "soften" a microscopic layer of the primer with it thinner thus ensuring a complete bond with the primer? If that's true then you could probably cut and polish the primer and the paint would still stick to it...or not...

**Rex T.** · October 22, 2007, 06:06 PM

Re: Mixing Lacquer Brands...

Chuck, I agree that for most other applications, I would not use 600 paper. Also agree that the lacquer is much more sensitive to what is known as "sand scratch swelling" and after a few months, these sand scratches (the result of too coarse sandpaper) begin to grow and expand. Over a period of a few years, they can become REAL SERIOUS problems.

I just primed a friend's 67 with Sherwin Williams' P30B black urethane primer. It goes on smooth and has an integral guide coat that helps with final sanding. SW recommends 600 grit wet / dry paper with this primer. I haven't got that far just yet, but I am very pleased with the way it "layed down" on the fiberglass.

For everyone's information, there is a guy in North Carolina who bought ALL of Sherwin's lacquer inventory and can mix most colors (he got the formulas too). I considered buying all of it myself a few years back, but I was faced with the small problem of storing 12,000 gallons of flammable liquid.

Anyway, for anyone interested, you can contact Raymond Winstead at Obsolete Paint Company in Roxboro, NC, ph 336-599-5155.

Rex

**Chuck S.** · October 22, 2007, 06:30 PM

Re: Mixing Lacquer Brands...

I'm too "young come lately" to know anything about lacquer, but what you say may be true. It was very volatile stuff (That explains why many old timey painters were either drunkards are acted like they were. ) Lots of volatile solvent are why the EPA won't let them make it anymore. And, that, is why I'm not motivated to add to my lacquer knowledge.

The requirement for "tooth", or a "mechanical bond" is not unusual in painting and occurs frequently even with modern coatings. The only way to get a "chemical bond" with modern products is to topcoat with a compatible product within a specified period of time...this period may vary from several hours up to a week depending on the product. Some like to say "wet on wet", but it's actually not "wet on wet" unless you're adding additional coats of the same product. The previous material is actually pretty far cured in the hour you must wait before topcoating.

While a chemical bond is superior, a mechanical bond with a good product is all that was available for a hundred years. ALL sanding primers have, by definition, a mechanical bond to the next coat. If you're bound and determined to use this old primer, reflect on the warnings you've been given numerous times, but for heaven's sake please use an epoxy primer as a sealer...that's the best mechanical bond you'll get with anything. That mechanical bond, barring chemical interactions between the products, will be the weakest point of your paint job.

Gregster, like ole Yogi said..."When you come to a fork in the road...Take it!!!"

**Jim T.** · October 22, 2007, 07:34 PM

Re: Mixing Lacquer Brands...

If Dupont still makes lacquer I would buy some to do some touch up on my 68 and my 70. Last time I checked with Dupont paint distributer it is not available, that was several years ago.
I am not the professional, but did do a lot of reading before I painted my 68 in 1981 and my 1970 in 90-91. I still have the actual Dupont refinishing books that I used to learn from. What does PPG say about just using a sealer on top of your primer and within the time limits, Dupont sealer does have time limits, apply the color coat?
I painted my 70 with color within the Dupont's time limit for their sealer. Got two color coats in Nov 90 before I ran out of time. I was painting in the carport and the weather was my stop factor. The car sat for almost four months before the weather/work days permitted me in 91 to apply two more coats of color. After drying longer than most would wait I used 1200, followed by 1500 color sanding followed with Dupont polishing compound. Still looks great in my book.

**Dick W.** · October 22, 2007, 08:47 PM

Re: Mixing Lacquer Brands...

Greg, they are probably recommending clear because of the metallic color. In most painters eyes clear looks better on top of metalic colors, and it does help the "eveness" of the color. With modern paints about the ONLY way to get a decent metallic paint job is with the use of clear.

**Bill W.** · October 22, 2007, 10:24 PM

Re: Mixing Lacquer Brands...

I have mixed primers & paints in the past with no problems BUT Its always best to keep apples with apples and oranges with oranges . what ever brands you use I would use a sealer over the primer .It will keep the paint from dulling out in a year .Bill.

**Bill W.** · October 22, 2007, 10:33 PM

Re: Mixing Lacquer Brands...

With lacquer you dont need "tooth" the sanding is only to give a smooth surface not for paint sticking .Lacquer penetrates into the primers. A wet coat in cool weather can penetrate all the way to metal or fiberglass .lacquer dries from the inside out and can draw the primers pigment with it thats why it should be sealed . In the old days sealer wasnt needed .. but the primer formulas were changed to keep the epa happy....Bill

**Wayne W.** · October 22, 2007, 10:45 PM

Re: Mixing Lacquer Brands...

Hey, I have NEVER got any paint company to warranty anything anyway, so I wouldnt worry any about mixing their primers and paint. Those companys can always find something that you did wrong. You will not have any trouble with compatability.

**Greg L.** · October 22, 2007, 11:34 PM

Re: Mixing Lacquer Brands...

Well this is turning out a lot better than my last "paint" thread.

Does anyone know which would be a good sealer to use between the lacquer primer and lacquer topcoat, and also what color of sealer I should use? Is there a specific lacquer sealer that you guys like that I should ask for?

Should I go with a clear as recommended by the paint supply shop or just stick with the color coat.

**Timothy B.** · October 23, 2007, 05:56 AM

Re: Mixing Lacquer Brands...

Greg,

I am just a hobbyist but you need a mechanical bond to this primer, 220 or 400 wet is how I would do it and you still may have some spot primer if any is sanded through (and I would not worry about sanding through), you may want to reprime the complete car. After that I would use DP40 (PPG epoxy primer) mixed as a sealer and paint within three days. The sealer lays down flat and thin and will keep solvents from the top coat from penetrating the primer. I am no painter and don't have the experence that others have but this is how I did my car, just my opinion. Tim

Mixing Lacquer Brands...

Mixing Lacquer Brands...

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