How do you make enamel look like lacquer?

[Greg L.]

How do you make acrylic enamel look like acrylic lacquer?

I'm just doing some last minute research on paint for my 69 and thought that I had better explore this final option seeing as this is where I first heard of it. I also posted this same question on http://www.autobodystore.com/home.shtml and a Pontiac site's body forum to see what they have to say. I picked the Pontiac forum because I have two GTOs that will probably get the same paint/process as my Corvette.

I thought that I had read someplace that this may be covered at a NCRS paint seminar so I contacted the Florida Chapter to see if there was going to be a paint session this Jan in Kissimmee but there isn't. So at this point I'm not really sure where to get the info that I need for this technique except from maybe someone here that has done it or knows how to do it.

Is anyone able to explain this procedure?

Thanks

Greg Linton
#45455

[Loren L.]

Partially in jest reply - first, practice lying;

2> paint one panel with lacquer so that when the judge says "Show Me Color" and hands you the rubbing compound, you have a place to go & 3rd, why bother? The one argument FOR enamel is durability - are you REALLY going to treat this car, when done, as it was treated by the first five owners? Will it be uncovered? No. Will it be outside more than 20 days of the year? No. So why.......

[Lyndon S.]

Re: Partially in jest reply - first, practice lyin

well said Loren, AMEN!

[Chuck S.]

Re: How do you make enamel look like lacquer?

Greg, after learning to paint acrylic urethane on my old SUV, my opinion is that your expectations are too high if you want to: (1) first learn how to paint, and then, (2) learn how to make a modern finish ALSO look like lacquer.

You can do the basic flattening of the jambs and ledges with little problem, but to make the painted surface look like lacquer, i.e. a little bit of fine orange peel like incompletely polished lacquer...Fageddabotit! You'll be happy just to get that high gloss finish free of runs, boogers, and dust nibs. And, by the time you eliminate all those warts, you will have color sanded and polished ALL that coarse acrylic orange peel away. The resulting finish will be beautiful, but it ain't going to be a good representation of a lacquer paint job.

Someone with a career of painting experience behind them using conventional siphon guns MIGHT be able to finesse that modern paint into looking somewhat like lacquer by adjusting the gun pressure. A beginner doesn't have a snowball's chance in that game in my opinion...you'll have enough trouble just getting your material set correctly, and properly overlapping your passes, so as to avoid runs and end up with uniform coverage.

Unfortunately, if you want this car to look like it's finished with lacquer, you are probably going to have to use lacquer unless you pay an experienced painter to do the job for you...that assumes that you can make him understand why you want him to paint a car so it looks like lacquer. The good news for you is it will be easier to learn to paint lacquer than modern finishes.

You can believe I would NEVER recommend using the lacquer they are making today, but I also know your expressed goals for this paint job. I'm a fair painter with a little experience, but I don't expect to be able to get the "lacquer look" with single stage acrylic urethane...and I've attended the paint seminar at least twice. Now, the guys that teach the paint seminar...they can probably make a fair representation of lacquer with single stage urethane.

[Dennis C.]

Chuck's response should be required...

...reading for any and every question about lacquer vs enamel vs whatever paint that shows up on this TDB - before they post...

[Greg L.]

Re: Chuck's response should be required...

Well the reason that I asked how to do this was mostly out of curiosity...and a little cold feet. I guy on another forum warned me that I'd be sorry in a few years if I used lacquer... He sprayed his 65 Corvette a few years back using all Dupont products and it looked great for a few years, always garaged and babied to a fault. A few years later he noticed some pin head sized pieces of paint lifting, and then more and more until he had to strip it. He said it was solvent popping which surprised me that it could happen so long after it was painted.

I remembered someone here mentioned that you can make enamel look like lacquer so I thought that I should at least look into it and see what is all involved in the process. It's not something that I'd consider trying myself because I just don't have the experience. I do however have a good friend that can lay down a coat of Centauri with the best of them and he would be the one that I turn to if I could find out how to do it and deceided to go this route.

For me and this car lacquer has more pros than cons and I'm still 95% sure that that's what I'll be putting on it but I will be kicking myself in a few years if the topcoat does fail.

Does anyone know who I could contact for this technique? If nothing else, after my Corvette is done, I'd like to try it out and if I can get it then I'd like to try it on one of my GTOs.

[Chuck S.]

There Ya Go...

"...guy on another forum warned me that I'd be sorry in a few years if I used lacquer... He sprayed his 65 Corvette a few years back using all Dupont products and it looked great for a few years, always garaged and babied to a fault. A few years later he noticed some pin head sized pieces of paint lifting, and then more and more until he had to strip it. He said it was solvent popping which surprised me that it could happen so long after it was painted..."

That is exactly what the DuPont paint reps will tell you, and in the paint seminars, they HAVE told us that today's politically correct lacquer will not weather well. But, let's be realistic...there is certainly some grain of truth there, but salemen have to "sell" you what their company manufactures.

In fairness to the current lacquer product, your friend on the other forum has drawn the wrong conclusion from the evidence...if the paint failed because of "solvent pop", I suspect he had some other problems like improper prep. However, a "few years" seems like a long time for "solvent pop" to manifest itself...maybe his description as "solvent pop" is incorrect, and there really is a problem with the product. The short life and environmental vulnerability does match what the DuPont reps told us.

It's not an easy decision, Greg, but I'm comfortable with my choice.

[Chuck S.]

PS...

As far as who to call for expertise in this area, I would recommend Tom Ames, an NCRS member and professional painter. I believe he owns his own business in Austin, Texas...maybe someone can email you his current telephone number. Tom, assisted by his DuPont tech rep, gave the NCRS paint seminar for several years.

The current NCRS Body & Paint resource is Paul Schuster...his telephone number is in the inside front cover of the The Corvette Restorer. I don't know that I've met Paul, so I don't know where he lands on the lacquer vs modern finish debate.

[Phil P.]

Re: PS...

I had my 67 conv shot with black laq---when parked next to any other non laq car it makes the other car look gray---it's a year old paint job and i will keep you posted if it starts to pop or deteriorate---i paid a guy/now friend in so cal to paint it---he will now shoot my 2nd 67 bc/cc marina blue---he is getting older and more crotchety about metallics being shot in laq---says they are too much work ---phil

[Bill W.]

Re: Chuck's response should be required...

"solvent pop" is NOT caused by paint! solvent pop is caused by poor preparation or covering a car with a non breathing or wet cover .any brand or type paint can get solvent pop. Urathane can get it by to wet of coats or to fast of dry time ...Bill

[Joe M.]

Re: Chuck's response should be required...

Check out the info I received on acrylic lacquer and posted a few messages below. Here is the forum address again. Looks like not too many folks read it compared to the number of responses here. You will find it interesting and it has nothing to do with China though as that was the default subect title.

http://autobodystore.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5804

[Chuck S.]

Yeap...

That group certainly seems like a learned symposium of organic chemists debating the pros and cons of coating formulations. I'm not even sure I believe everything I read on those forums about paint prep and application, let alone their opinions on chemistry-based paint mysteries far beyond most our comprehensions.

My interest in this thread is to try and help Greg answer his question in a fair and balanced manner, and not to debate which finish is "best". For what he wants to do, he can best achieve his objectives with lacquer, and I have said as much.

But, when a DuPont tech rep tells you that a product IS NOT the same as it once was in formulation or durability, you had best believe it is not a bald-faced lie just because they don't make the product anymore. The better question is...WHY doesn't DuPont make lacquer anymore? The answer is that DuPont as a corporation projected there would be little market for this product in the future due to government regulations, and they make their money selling to large markets, not to niche users. If the hobby market is so small that they're not interested in catering to it, then DuPont should have little interest in lying about the capabilities of the product sold to that market...or so it would seem to me.

[Lyndon S.]

Re: Chuck's response should be required...

I know that this will open a whole new can of worms. Here goes, what about the new quarts of pre thinned lacquer from Duplicolor? I know they have a limited number of hues. But for a driver and a home project on the cheep to learn with that might just be the ticket? At less than 20 Yankee dollars, one could shoot a driver for a C-note. And maybe learn something on shooting primer and paint. I have a old truck that I am going to try them on. And like I said they have a limited selection of hues, but for a beater and some one to learn how to paint at one’s house this would be a cheap why to go about it with out spending a small chunk of money.

Kelly

[Joe M.]

Re: Chuck's response should be required...

Hearing "a product IS NOT the same as it once was in formulation or durability" from a company who no longer makes lacquer leads to what conclusion? Because that response provides absolutely no useful information that statement lends itself to be taken as prejudical.

Could one conclude PPG is ripping people off by selling lacquer that is "not the same" as it once was and is subject to premature failure?

Anecdotal stories of lacquer failure would be more credible and useful if details of products used, and preparation were provided. Otherwise it's a fish story.

So why should I believe one painter's opinion over another painter?

The series of questions Greg asked pertaining to enamel is set in reference to which finish is best for his intended purpose.

Yeap, take it all with a grain of salt.