69 waterpump

[steve styllis]

Just stripping out the engine compartment on my 69 big block. Got a chance to check the date code on the waterpump, reads C14 8 which I assume is march 14 68. My car is a december 68 build, does this sound reasonable?. I think it's a bit early, anybody have any comments.

[Pete Lindahl]

Re: 69 waterpump

Perhaps someone will have some specific information regarding this or an example, but if your car's previous owners were like the ones who owned some of the cars I have, they didn't go out of their way to replace failed parts with appropriately or even closely dated parts, but there is a remote chance they ended up getting an approprately dated replacement part. A little serendipity never hurt anyone, but it will really confuse the issue. Anyway, unless you have good reason to believe and/or evidence to support the contrary, it sounds like there is no substantive reason to believe it's not the original water pump. Remember, GM was and is in business to make money and I don't expect that they looked at the casting dates when they assembled the engine and they definitely didn't follow NCRS "rules of thumb" regarding dates when they built the cars. The NCRS "rules of thumb" came as a result of considerable research but you know about rules, there can be deviations. Anyway, that's my 2 cents on this issue.

[Patrick H.]

Re: 69 waterpump

By chance, when re-doing the engine in my 71 in 1996, I actually came on a early 72 date water pump in the parts store, and put it on my car since it was a rebuilt unit.

And the date on my original pump, removed from my June 71 engine? H 70, or August 1970. Nobody ever said that all the dates would line up. And I have no doubt that it was the original pump, based on paint spray patterns, etc.

Yours could have even been replaced early on by the dealer, if it leaked soon in life, thereby allowing a "close but late" date. Who knows. And if the judges can't see the date anyway, you may get lucky enough to find one at your auto parts store, as I did.

[Jack H.]

Re: 69 waterpump

Hi, Steve! How are things in JOE (Jolley Olde England)?

Yep, waterpumps are a high wear item and it's common to find 'em replaced either in warranty or later in life. Now for the 'sliver lining' to your cloud....

I think if you read your '68-69 NCRS Judging Guide, you'll find the water pump casting number and date coding method is described THEN FOLLOWED with a dirrective to the effect that casting dates are so hard to read when the pump is installed on the engine with pulley/fan that it's prohibited to judge the casting date!

[steve styllis]

Re: 69 waterpump

Hi Jack

Thanks for asking, things are pretty much the same here in England - cold, wet, grey, the unattainable dream of world cup soccer success......

Anyway it wasn't that I was really concerned with the judging aspect,( most of our judges here couldn't even tell you where to find the water pump on "one of them yankee cars") I was just interested to see if anyone thought that it was possible for a pump with that early a date to be original to the car. I still think it's at least possible.

regards Steve

[Gary Bosselman (2575)]

Jack, a follow-up question

Jack,

A follow-up question to your waterpump response to Steve. Is what your said about the 69 waterpump casting date and non-judgability also true for judging the water pump casting date on '66 small block cars? Or does the date appear in a different place on 66 small block water pumps.

Gary

[Jack H.]

Re: Jack, a follow-up question

Have to read the Judging Guide for each car/year to answer that. While there's a thread of commonality across divisions, there are differences to boot. If it's not specifically mentioned (called out or prohibited) in the JG for your car, then it's an issue of judge's knowledge.

I was commenting on just one issue where there's a difference between car/year/division at NCRS. The early Shark Judging Guides specifically say how to read the casting number/date code on the water pump THEN go a step further and prohibit (bar) the judges from using that data. This is NOT the case on other Corvettes.

For '66, there's a good reason why not. SB pumps (326 casting) were around since early '63 and didn't start having casting dates applied until Nov '65. So, service replacement pumps will have cast dates while factory originals won't on the majority of mid-year cars (327 engines built before Nov '65). It's fair game for judges to assess whether or not it's a correct '326' casting (appearance of upper bypass boss is unique) then go on to see if a casting date (specific date may NOT matter) is present to determine whether it's a factory original or service spare.

This is just one example of how things change here/there and it pays to get the books, read 'em, and talk to more than one source during the restoration/preservation of your Corvette. Why, one division makes rulings one way and another division rules another is a great mystery of the concours circuit....

[Jack H.]

Re: 69 waterpump

Having the distinction of being a founding member of the NCRS UK Chapter and put out the dough to swim the pond last Spring/Summer to actually be a UK Corvette judge and been team leader for '68/69 cars at Danesfield House, I can tell you there ARE guys over there who can tell the difference since I'm one of 'em!!!! Plus, it was a PLEASURE to be in your country and interact with your people and your cars. I'd go again REAL SOON....

What's possible, what's probable, and what's real are very frequently different things and judgement calls. If it's improbable or 'impossible', the burden of proof falls on the owner under NCRS judging rules. Few, have that elusive witnessed affidavit from Zora to support their position.

I just wanted to get back to you and point out a tiny item in the early Shark Judging Guides that cut the owner slack (compared to other cars, years, division). I know what you guys pay for 'correct' 'original' parts and my heart bleeds for your effort and dedication. Whether or not the casting date is correct for your engine makes little difference to me. It's just a matter of a handfull of points and more important to me that you enjoy, use, and let others see your car!!!!

You won't be the first UK guy I've helped either rebuild his water pump (kits can be bought here for

[steve styllis]

Re: 69 waterpump

Jack

sorry if you misunderstood me. I was refering to general show judging not specific corvette judging. Most of the classic car shows in the UK are general events and the majority of cars are british. Few people have any knowledge of corvettes, (they are considered rather exotic by your average Brit)most people I talk to have no Idea who made them, that they are fiberglass etc. Obviously those in the corvette hobby are very knowledgable but we are only few in comparison to the general classic car hobby in the UK. As you rightly point out the difficulties we face in the UK with obtaining parts and knowledge is enormous. That is why I find the discussion board so helpfull. We simply dont have access to the type first hand experience that you have of these cars. I'll never know exactly how my car or indeed any vette looked new because they were never sold new here.

Regards Steve