Question re: NEW Judging Manuals

[Kurt B.]

Can anyone who has one of the NEW judging manuals tell me if they deal with types of bolts and headmarkings?
I have an earlier NCRS judging manual for the 68-69 and it does not cover bolt markings for head bolts. I am going crazy trying to find a source for CORRECT head bolts for a 68 327 with 350 horsepower. The Chevy dealer tells me the head bolts they currently sell have no head markings and I think I am supposed to have circles or double circles or letters. Any help appreciated which is why I was wondering if the new judging manuals address this issue. Thank you, Kurt

[Jack H.]

Re: Question re: NEW Judging Manuals

Rarely will you find an 'algorithm' or 'recepie' for what's factory concours correct on fastener headmarks.... In isolated places, the NCRS JG's DO specify, but this is the exception rather than the rule. Most of the time, JG's state something like "X, Y, and Z are known examples of original fasteners used in this position".

Why is this done? Simple, for a given fastner, GM had a plurality of approved sources. Incoming shipments from various suppliers were stored in common inventory bins (mixed). I've seen all kinds of variations on the theme of headmarks....

Example: an 'untouched' engine from, say, Flint with RBW valve cover bolts on the LH bank and Circle-L on the RH bank. Obviously, when this engine went down the line, they had replenished one worker's supply bin asynchronously from another worker's bin.

Also, even though there were n-tuple qualified suppliers of a given fastener, one supplier might be physically closer to a given GM assy site and be the 'prefered' vendor to supply that site based on the cost of freight in....

Last, even if/when you decide, say, an Anchor head bolt is correct for your particular candidate application, you now have to ask what is the correct configuration of the Anchor headmark? Screw machine tooling changed over time and there are early, mid, mid-mid, late and late-late styles of the headmark.

Examples: Is the anchor big or small? Is the anchor above, centered or below the parting line? How is the anchor positioned on the head? Is the font crisp and high, or low/fat/fuzzy?

Guys who've been judging for +20 years get a feeling for their areas of expertise based on observations of 'untouched' cars. Restoration/preservation is part science AND part art. On the topic of 'correct' fastener headmarks, you're smack dab in the middle of the hobby's true art-form!

How do those skilled in the art deal with this? Well, re-using the original fastners from your 'untouched' Corvette is obviously the best/safest way to proceed UNLESS there's ANY question of safety/reliability.

Also, if you know you don't know on your car; spending time as an observer judge helps + visiting your local scrap yard to find an untouched Chevy passenger car/truck engine that came from the same engine plant at the same time your Corvette motor was built helps! That's why some of us do 'foolish' things like spend our summer afternoons strolling through scarp yards.

Hey, at an average of $1/bolt based on current catalog prices, the fastener content ALONE in a junk yard engine can be worth $300-400!!! Few consider this when they go out and buy individual pieces (cylinder case, cylinder heads, intake, exhaust manifolds) and then bolt them together!

[Kurt B.]

Re: Question re: NEW Judging Manuals

Jack,
Thanks for an informative and in depth response. I do have a junkyard in the next town over and might be able to find the correct bolts IF I knew what I was looking for. Also, I know nothing of building engines and read in several places that it is unwise to risk rebuilding an engine using 'used' head bolts. Is it "OK" to use such "used" bolts if I can find them? Where should I look to research which headmarks are correct. Time is of the essence as I am trying to procure the necessary parts to send the motor to a machine shop for assembly using "correct" parts. It's already been 7 years and I need to get this car finished. I have most of the books on 68s but so far have not found anything specific on bolts. Thanks for any recommended literature sources,
Kurt

[John C.]

Re: Question re: NEW Judging Manuals

IMHO, the identification of markings on bolts can scarcely be called "art" of restoration.

If the judging is truely to be impartial and bolt markings are a matter of concern for authenticity, then the allowable bolt markings should be in the JGs. No ifs, ands, or buts. None of this tribal knowledge stuff. If its not mentioned in the JG, then it shouldn't be a points deduction. If a judge believes a head marking to be incorrect, then he should lobby to have this added to the JG. If the correct head markings are known, then they should not be kept secret but should be included in the JGs. Until the JG is revised and available for ALL members to review, then a judge should not be allowed to deduct any points at an NCRS show. There should be none of this "the standard is in the judge's head" nonsense. This statement will not sit well with some, but face it, we all have better things to do with our lives than to worry about whether the markings on our head bolts are correct or not. I will not spend another minute contemplating such trivialities.

If the judging actually does work this way, then my apologies. Judging (pun intended) by the postings I see, it doesn't. MY two cents.

[Dave Suesz]

My 0.02

I have been getting the "contact a judge in your area" runaround for the better part of a year, even from vendors who SELL fasteners. People keep saying "well, there were a lot of vendors to GM for fasteners, etc., etc., etc.". What I say is this: Either the rulebooks should list the POSSIBILITIES, or headmarks SHOULD NOT BE JUDGED!

[Jack H.]

Re: Question re: NEW Judging Manuals

Then you strongly dislike the competitive Corvette factory concours organizations (E.g. NCCB-Bloomington, NCCC, Chevy/Vettefest) where ALL judging specifics are left to the knowledge of individual judges in attendance....

[Jack H.]

Re: My 0.02

Reasons the vendors do this (refer you back to 'judges') is because there IS controversy on certain issues (see my discussion about even specific headmarks changing over time). NCRS does publish guidelines in certain areas, but NOT all places and with anything of human nature, there will be errors of omission as well as errors of commission....

For these reasons our club (yes OUR) calls the books "Technical Information Manual and Judging Guide". Not the operative word "Guide" instead of 'manual'....

From the NCRS Judging Reference Manual (white book), Section 1, Rule 1:

"NCRS Judging Reference Manual

The Judging Reference Manualis to be used as the overall guide for any NCRS judging related activity in conjunction with the family of NCRS Technical Information Manuals & Judging Guides...."

Then, from Section 1, Rule 2:

".... The manual's text is intended to provide appropriate basic available technical information a a brief desctiptive overview of the particular item of area being judged. It is not designated or intended to list or describe every detail that may be judged on a given item or area, nor does it necessarily contain specific VIN or date information relating to 'running changes', early- or late- production irregularities, or production-line anomalies, Incomplete or incorrect information may apear and members are encouraged to submit, in writing (with supporting data), information regarding any correction, addition or clarification which may be considered for for future inclusion and use to help improve our manuals or judging process.

During judging, the frequency of reference to the manual text will be largely determined by the combined knowledge and experience of the individual Juding Team. When a judging doubt exists or relatively inexperienced judges are being utilized, the manual text should be followed closely to help arrive at consistent decisions."
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The above thread has turned slightly negative point to 'us/them' references (owners vs. judges). This is a club and we are all MEMBERS. On any given day, a member may be 'owner', 'judged' or both!

We are primarily a volunteer organization doing club work chores for the benefit of other club members. No other organization on EARTH has taken as much human resouce time to reduce Corvette trivia to writing as has NCRS! The above rules show we understand the frailties and incomplete nature of our own work. These rules also encourage other members to roll up their slevees and get involved to help change and improve our system.

It's easy to stand on the sidelines and cast stones. It's another to get active, contribute your personal time and financial resources to work within the system to change and improve it.

When I responded to the original post, I tried my best to tell the reality of what happens with respect to fasteners and headmarks. I was NOT advocating what could be/should be. If there are those who believe parts that are real and actually part of a Corvette should be IGNORED on the judging field because they are not fully documented in writing 100% algorithmically correct, my apologies.

[Dave Suesz]

Re: My 0.02 & judging

The guiding philosophy of judging for me has always been "Be nice, be sure, or be silent". Well, I would have to say that whether we are talking about NCRS, NCCC, or the Mustang Club of America, if we are looking at, say, hood hinge bolts, unless the book says something like "Hood hinge attaching bolts may be marked "TR, UR, or WB1C", then the headmarks should not be judged. Unless a consensus as to the configuration can be acheieved, there will continue to be controversy as to the authenticity of bolt configurations, which will give rise to hard feelings whenever a judge disallows a given fastener. Allowing judging of "correctness" to be based on individual experience invites an unlimited number of standards. As a certified judge for 64 1/2, 65, and 66 Mustangs, I understand the difference between "may" and "shall", I only hope the next judge who looks at my 'Vette does, too.

[Jack H.]

Re: My 0.02 & judging

This happens FREQUENTLY at NCRS--judge believes he/she knows what is 'correct' in the absense of written guidelines and 'informs' the owner by way of simple comment on the score sheet without taking deduction(s).

Also, I said (and there ARE) NUMEROUS places in our published guidelines were text reads along the lines of "Known original headmarks include.....".

Judge(s) also have the discretion to NOT take deduction(s) when they believe a bona fide exception is facing them and/or the text of the judging guide is in error.

The problem(s) with a written/published system where knowledge is still evolving is how to implement/enforce? We delegate a reasonable wide latitude of discretion to the judges, put as much as we know/can agree on in writing, and provide a mechanism for appeal/resolution.

I think it's unfair to vent at the system when historic 'truth' is told:

(1) There are/were different fasteners.
(2) The fastener's changed appearance over time.
(3) There may or may not be specific guidelines on what is 'correct'.
(4) It's ultimately the judgement call of those judges responsible.
(5) Here are some helpful hints on how to help decide what's right for you and your restoration....

[Kurt B.]

Re: Question re: NEW Judging Manuals

Gentlemen:
Let me clarify my question so there is no doubt regarding its original intention. I am not questioning or criticizing the judging system. I am trying to buy the CORRECT head bolts for my 68 which is in midst of a 7 year restoration. To often in the past, I have purchased the wrong items because I listened to a vendor or just due to my own ignorance. Now I have purchased a significant amount of literature and still can not find the correct head bolt markings in all the books I have acquired, and since this is a labor of love for me (and I want this car perfect) I am trying desperately to be certain that every part I purchase is absolutely correct. (Why else would I have paid $1000.00 for a used correct date coded Rochester carburetor to replace my incorrect Holley) Please be assured I was not trying to start a war, only trying to obtain knowledge which I am clearly lacking on this subject. I have always had good results on this board and respect the level of knowledge that is always present here. Thanks to each of you for your input and suggestions
Kurt Bunting NCRS 26406

[John C. Woods]

Re: Question re: NEW Judging Manuals

Kurt - I recommend you get a copy of the "Corvette Chassis Restoration Guide", written by Joe Tripoli. You can buy it from the NCRS publications office, on this web site. It has a good list of fasterner head markings that apply to your car.

As Jack pointed out in his posting in this thread, experienced judges know that GM used various vendors to supply fasterners. The head marks designated them as the supplier, as well as the grade of the fastener. I know of an untouched '71 that had self taping line clip bolts from five different manufactures holding the fuel lines to the chassis. To further support Jack's point that multiple head marks were used for a single application, for 68-72 engine/chassis I know of only ONE fastner application that can ALWAYS be counted on to have the same head mark. There are many applications that MOSTLY or ALMOST ALWAYS have the same head mark, but not always. For the most part, experienced judges will look for the grade, installation (is the rear sway bar hanger bolt head on the inboard or outboard side?), finish and finally, to determine if the manufacture's mark is consistent with those who are known to have supplied fasterners to GM during that period; not which precise manufacture's bolt was used here or there.

For what it's worth, a good restoration rule is to: study the fastners that were generally used during your model year, use the correct grade and finish, install the bolt in the manner that is specified in the AIM, and you'll do fine.

Finally, the facts that judges CAN and DO judge items beyond the specifics in the NCRS Technical Reference and Judging Guide is a documented and long-standing policy of NCRS. Jack cited the specific policy references. There is sound logic that supports this practice that we explain in our judging schools and at the owner's meetings. We need to keep in mind that in actual practice, a judge must gain agreement from his/her partner on all judging assessments and point deductions. If they don't agree, then the Team Leader settles the question. If both judges agree with each other but the owner does not agree, again, the Team Leader resolves the issue. Team Leaders are VERY EXPERIENCED judges themselves. This system of checks and balances tends to keep things on track and reasonable. It's not a perfect system, but it is an excellent system.

Good luck on your restoration project!

[Paul B.]

Re: Question re: NEW Judging Manuals

Kurt, just checked my '68's head bolts(VIN #18434, May 6th body build)and it has two styles. One has a thin circle around a capital "A", the other style has a "heavier" bolder circle around a "smaller" capital "R". I don't absolutely know if these are original, but I bought the car with 87,000mi in 1988 and it "appeared" that the motor had never been apart.

[John C.]

Re: Question re: NEW Judging Manuals

Certainly!!