Flight judging vs Bloomington Gold

[Steve Bone]

Can anyone tell me the differences between N.C.R.S Flight judging and Bloomington judging?

I have a 98.5 Top Flight 59 and I am thinking about having it judged in Bloomington. Do they use the N.C.R.S judging manual? or do they have a Bloomington manual?

I have herd a few stories of guys with Top Flight cars, that have had Bloomington judges tare them a new one and they end up with a silver in Bloomington. Is this pretty common?

Regards,
Steve

[Jack H.]

Re: Flight judging vs Bloomington Gold

The two factory concours circuits are quite similar, yet there ARE subtle differences. NCRS uses a 4500 point system with 'interpolation' of line item score (how many points of X available should we take for this/that deviation). NCRS has extensive published rules, but, in the end judge's knowledge rules....

The NCCB is a for-profit firm, about 50% of their judges have NCRS affiliation but when working the field they represent NCCB instead of NCRS. There is no written 'book'--just a phamphlet giving you general orientation. Most all relies on judge's knowledge, but you CAN discuss deductions there just as you can at NCRS and there is a similar right to appeal.

I've had judges at BOTH NCCB and Chevy/Vettefest change initial scoring verdicts after polite interchange during owner debrief! Expect the judging to go FAST (maybe 20 minutes total) and you can expect very professional knowledgeable review.

At NCCB, they don't 'allocate' points. The score sheets have five check blocks for Originality and another five for Condition. Each line item has equal value and there are a lot more individual line items. Judges simply look and check a block (1-5). The score sheets are fed to an optical scanner and wham, bam, the score falls out.

There are some 'sacred' items however (like block stamp pad). If you fall into a 'bad' range on a 'sacred' item, it doesn't matter what your final score is, you can't win Gold Certification. Unlike NCRS which is a club, by members, for members; NCCB is a for-profit service open to the public (first come, first serve raffle for scarce judging positions--typically 10 cars/division/year). So, it's a semi-invitation affair. There is an 'art' to telling a cash paying 'customer' the 'bad news' about his car, and you'll find the judges are not only knowledgeable, they're diplomatic too.

My experience is this: whatever you scored at NCRS, figure you'll do about 1% less at Bloomington IF you haven't gone there, scoped out their proceedures and understand what they do.... Examples:

(1) NCRS doesn't really care about cars having window stickers. BUT, this WAS on the car when it left the factory! It's a line item at NCCB. Plus, the window sticker wasn't encased in protective plastic and it wasn't attached to the window with scotch tape! Better have one and have it done right!

(2) 'Death' at Bloomington is to be missing something (you loose the whole line item Originality & Condition. This is also true at NCRS, but we tend to 'lump' individual pieces into our scoring line items. For example--glove box literature. You might have this/that piece but not each & every piece of glove box literature (including Protecto Plate, Etc.). So, missing one piece of the line item doesn't 'kill' you. Not so at Bloomington....

(3) They look closely at cosmetics. If you've touched up the Chevy orange on your factory original painted exhaust manifolds, used a brush, and gotten a fleck of Chevy orange on to the frame, expect them to find it and DEDUCT (frame wasn't at Flint/Tonawanda when Chevy orange was shot)....

All in all, I ENCOURAGE you to go to Bloomington. I think you'll have fun and learn! I did! In fact, after I got MoE (Mark of Excellence), I went on to have my car judged at Bloomington and at the Chevy/Vettefest in Chicago. I ALWAYS learned something new from the judges!!!!

[Patrick H.]

Re: Flight judging vs Bloomington Gold

Steve,

Bloomington will send you a copy of their judging sheets ahead of time if you contact them and ask. We did this for a friend's 84, and "pre-judged" it two weeks before Bloomington while at our local fun show.

Good luck,

Patrick

[John C. Woods]

Re: Flight judging vs Bloomington Gold

Steve - Both Bloomington Gold and NCRS recognize and reward factory authenticity, which is what the standards of both organizations are based on. There is a slight difference in the standards. For Bloomington Gold, the standard is "As the car left the factory, no better, no worse and no different." For NCRS the standard also is as the car left the factory AND "...after having undergone the then-current standard Chevy Dealer New Car Preperation for delivery to the purchaser, exclusive of any dealer or purchaser inpired additions, deletions or changes." That's why you see window stickers on the Blooington Gold Certification Field but don't see them on the NCRS Flight Judging Field. The same goes for wax on the tires, hubcaps in the trunk and so forth.

It takes 94% to earn a NCRS Top Flight, 95% to earn a Bloomington Gold. There really is not a Bloomington Gold analog to the NCRS Duntov/McLellan award (97% w/o driving points AND a Performance Verification Award).

NCRS places twice the emphasis on Operations, at 16% of the total score. Bloomington Gold places twice the emphasis on Cleanliness, or 4% of the total score.

One could write volumes on the subtle and not-so-subtle differences between the judging systems of these two organizations. Two valuable reference documents are: The NCRS Corvette Judging Reference Manaual and the Bloomington Gold Certification Guldelines. Both (and more) publications are available through the web sites of the two organizations.

Bottom line, a well prepared restoration or a well preserved original car will score well at either event. One great aspect of NCRS is the fact that we have 50-60 events each year where a member can have his/her car judged.

[Jimmy G.]

Re: Flight judging vs Bloomington Gold

I revisited Bloomington for the first time in several years and my opinion of their judging and event has not changed. You can never understand Bloomington until you understand the following formula "BLOOMINGTON = MONEY = BLOOMINGTON". I looked at some "survivor" cars that in NCRS would not have even been recommended for BOWTIE judging, and the sad part was that they were awarded "survivor" status. Flight judging is much more realistic of what a car really is.

[Steve Bone]

Re: Flight judging vs Bloomington Gold

My 59 is a base clear car. With a over restored body. It is black and all the waves are out of it. Will this automatically take me out of the Bloomington Gold running?

Regards,
Steve
:m23:

[Gary C.]

Re: Flight judging vs Bloomington Gold

Steve

Last year Mr. John Woods and Mr. Terry McManmon ran an excellent thursday course, several hours long, that extensively compared and contrasted the two systems. You might want to look for it in this years program when it comes out. Otherwise, you have recieved excellent answers here.

[Robert C.]

Re: Flight judging vs Bloomington Gold

In this club you can achieve Top Flight with a non-original block or a re-stamped block. At Bloomington you would be "starting at silver".

[Jack H.]

Re: Flight judging vs Bloomington Gold

Bloomington will deduct for base/clear surface paint in a similar manner to NCRS, as this was not how Chevy built the car. As far as extra surface prep (sanding/flatness), both organizations understand Flight and Certification are 'restored' cars and there's a painter/restorer siren call to make it better than it actually was from the factory.... Both organizations have separate recognition categories for 'un-restored' cars. The degree of deduction you can expect for 'over-restoration' will depend on how obviously 'over restored' the car is (were original aspects of the fiberglass panels removed by sanding like the detail around the trunk lock? and so on)....

The fact you, or someone else, elected to deviate from factory orignal surface preparation WILL be detected and the degree of deduction will depend upon the degree of deviation. One of the 'boxed out' areas at Bloomington is individual fiberglass panels. Generally, it takes something very 'gross' for this to kick in, like you cut a hole/added a scoop for the Weiland super charger.... If panels have been replaced with non-factory original components, expect some level of deduction(s) based upon the degree of deviation from factory known original components.

[Harmon C.]

Re: Flight judging vs Bloomington Gold

In judging at NCRS points are deducted one at a time. The difference I see is at Bloomington it is 0-5-10-15-20 points so if your Corvette has lots of one point deductions in NCRS at 5 per hit in Bloomington even though there is twice as many points you can end up short.

[Bill W.]

Re: Flight judging vs Bloomington Gold

I have judged quite a few cars that have been judged at bloomington .its not unusual to find something , and have the owner tell you later that no one caught it at bloomington . it goes back to time . ncrs judges have all the time they need ,and all the groups dont attack the car at once .at bloomington you are dependent on your judges knowledge or lack of,or at the very least his ideas of what is correct. both groups have some very good judges and a few bad ones .if you go through the ncrs process you will have a chance to see many more judges at different levels .Bill

[Jack H.]

Re: Flight judging vs Bloomington Gold

Yes, there is more time for scrutiny at NCRS 'unless' a given Division is full (10 cars max). There are also more 'levels' of judging at NCRS (Chapter, Regional, National) that each generate what appears to the novice to be the same Flight award (standards are the same, but experience level of judges typically increases as you move up the ladder).

But, my car was acknowledged MoE (Mark of Excellence) holder when I decided to visit the other factory concours circuits (Bloomington/Chicago), and in BOTH cases judges found/taught items that had been missed in seven prior NCRS Regional/National outings.

I'm NOT saying this is a 'fault' of NCRS. I'm saying each/every time you have your car judged, expect to learn more because you get fresh sets of eyeballs on 'er manned by human beings with distinct/discrete knowledge spheres. It's well worth the effort to visit other judging circuits for the FUN and KNOWLEDGE content!

[John W.]

Re: Flight judging vs Bloomington Gold

Bill,

Would you contact me by e-mail at admin@ncrs.org.