C1, Modified or Mutilated?

[Scott Myers]

I have a beautifull late 1960 that is an older restoration but was
done very well. The only problem is it has a 1970, 350 small block for
an engine. Actually it's not really a problem as it runs and drives
very well thank you. My question: Is there a place in the whole NCRS
judging and award's structure for a modified car? as I continue to restore
miscellaneous items, I am taking care to keep things original, am I wasting
my time because of the engine Mod? perhaps I should just enjoy the Driver
and stick to the standard car shows instead. Enquiring Minds want to Know?

P.S. Hello Bob Kyostia, the car is doing great!!

[Ed Jennings]

Re: C1, Modified or Mutilated?

Scott, if a non original engine is all that's "wrong" with your car I wouldn't worry about it too much. The matching numbers, original engine is just a few penstrokes in your checkbook away. Check the ads in the driveline. Complete motors are only about $2K.

If it were mine, I'd drive it and enjoy it like it is. NCRS does have a "Sportsman" category for not-quite-original cars, but I'm not sure ther are any awards. My den is full of trophys from local Corvette shows and no one has looked at the numbers yet. ( They don't match, or at least not very well, though both cars have "period correct" engines with parts of the original motors visable.).

[Dan Grunwald]

Re: C1, Modified or Mutilated?

Great question Scott! I hope this starts some serious discussion here. I have a 67 coupe that I like to think has been upgraded by replacing it's original 400 hp with a 435 HP aluminum head engine from a 69 vette. Yet many of the "must be original" people look down on this as a non-original car and see that as bad. The car is very original in almost every other way. Even the rear drum rivets have never been drilled out! It would be nice to see a classification for NOM cars that may not be complete customs but show as well as original cars and many times they drive better. Perhaps this could include only mechanical upgrades that make the car safer or more reliable as well,(brakes, etc.). I still really like my driver but I don't think I could have it judged either as it would suffer against some of the cars that are really inferior cars but have matching numbers. Also, just how many of those cars do you really think have engines that were original to the car. With a little patience and the right $$ any car can get a correct date coded engine, trans, etc. and have it stamped to match the car. Perhaps a new class would eliminate some of this reaching to be a non-original numbers matching corvette. It might also help to get more new enthusiasts involved in this great hobby, (Disease),without scaring them off about not purchasing a matching numbers car due to the dollars needed as well as the fear of not having the knowlege needed to buy a "fake" car. I'm being long winded. Sorry.
Daniel Grunwald

[Gerry Proctor]

Re: C1, Modified or Mutilated?

You know, Dan, it would be nice if we could escape from this damn "numbers matching" rat trap that we've all built for ourselves. It's not just Corvettes either...it's pervasive and includes just about every car you'd consider owning. I'm frequently asked if I show my '72. In today's world, I'd be afraid to. It is a true numbers car, but I did a complete conversion of my 400-trim over to leather including the fake wood, cut pile, and door panels and I have an L-88 hood on the car. I have a few somewhat inconspicuous performance additions like my Sportsman heads and MSD ignition. I have all of the original parts and could put it back to factory in a day. I like my car the way it is but I would probably get a good tatoo if I were to show it anywhere.

[Scott Myers]

Re: C1, Modified or Mutilated?

Wow, its great to know that there is a large contingent out there that have
thier cars modified for the better and still maintain thier true look! After
all isn't that what most of the original owners did with a car, "soup it up". I
couldn' agree more about the NOM class as an option, but I suppose that goe's
against the Main Purpose of restoration, who knows!?. I am encouraged that there are others
out there with similar situations.

Thanks for the thoughts.

[Michael W.]

Scott, the class you want to enter is called

Flight judging. None of the other proposed classes are necessary. ALL cars are modified away from what was installed at the factory, some to a large degree, some to a smaller degree. Who still has the original fluids and air in their car? Nobody. That's (technically) a modification!

Simply having a replacement engine does not mean you cannot enter and enjoy. Contrary to popular misunderstanding a NOM car is still eligible for a top flight award, although the rest of the car would really have to be superb.

Do yourself a favour and go to a chapter meet and become familiar with the judging process. You'll find it's much more open that it appears.

[Wayne C.]

Re: C1, Modified or Mutilated?

The problem with a modified class of judging would be the criteria. NCRS (NC-RESTORATION-S), as I see it, judges against the "as delivered from the factory" standard.

What would be the criteria for a modified class...

Cleanliness and workmanship only?

Innovation in design or color?

Degree of difficulty?

Best use of fiberglass?

Best use of stainless steel or chrome?

Best dyno run?

Least recognizable as a Corvette?

...Would you have to do all of the above to get a high score? Are you allowed to survey the judges in advance to find out their favorite colors, turn-offs, etc?

Personally I'm not into having my (not-entirely-original) car(s) judged in shows, but I would think this type of judging is best left to the existing hotrod organizations, who do it very well.

[Dan Grunwald]

Re: C1, Modified or Mutilated?

Wayne,
I think any modification of the judging process would have to be done VERY carefully as it is excellent as it exists now. Personally I think we could use a possible class that would not include body shape or outline mods but might not degrade for driveline or safety improvements. it should still look like a corvette with no hood scoops,radiused wheel wells, tubbed interiors etc. What do you think?
Daniel

[Bill Clippinger]

Re: C1, Modified or Mutilated?

Scott:

I'd apply the rule which trumps all others - simply enjoy your car! Some folks get enjoyment from having a perfectly pristine numbers matching car which never gets started, let alone driven. And some folks enjoy a squeaking, rattling chopped Vette with a blower sticking out of the hood and flared fenders. Both are A-OK in my book. My Vette would never score points in the numbers matching category, but like yourself I do try and keep it original in all the other aspects.

My suggestion would be this: You seem to appreciate the "originalness" of the "rest" of the car. So I'd say keep it as original as you can, drive it whenever you feel, and have it judged at an NCRS event. You'll meet some great people, and the judges can give you an honest assessment of your car. Like mentioned in the earler post, you may find that the car scores high even though the engine isn't correct. Even if it doesn't score high, if you have a good time...well heck...then it's worth it!

Bill

[Bob Malone #35242]

Re: C1, Modified or Mutilated?

This post didn't cause nearly the flak I thought it would. Seems I'm not the only closet customizer. Personally, I'd rather experience the high of driving a beautiful but less valuable car more than the fear associated with driving a pristine machine. I want my car to be the envy of everyone that sees it, not just the NCRS judges. I really don't care if only the NCRS judges and I know what it's not. It will still win awards at the hot rod shows.

Having said that, I have nothing but the highest admiration for all NCRS people. I could not have made my car what it is without their help, their documentation and their dedication to the disease.., uh hobby. My hats off to all of them and to my closet companions.

[Rich Beauchamp]

Re: C1, Modified or Mutilated?

Scott,

As a real novice, I entered my first judging last weekend. (Top Flight!!!!!) After a week with the Q-Tips, I was a basket case, but the judging was a real learning experience!!! Whether your engine is stock or not, I strongly urge you to give it a try. You will be surprised at how much you learn about your car.

At least get a Judging Reference Manual, and see what the judges look at, and how it is scored. And if you drive your car to the meet, you will get additional points which may offset some of the penalty of a non stock motor.

But whatever you do, drive it, and enjoy it!!!!!

[Vinnie P.]

[Wayne C.]

I'm for retaining the purity.

Well, perhaps a "hoods down" class might be a possibility.(so if you cut the front springs, I guess you could save the cost of an engine!)

Not trying to be flip, but I expect everybody who has decided to "improve" something, or just can't locate the correct rare parts, would like a class that judged everything except the things that aren't factory correct on their own car. I think NCRS probably has it right when they draw the line at correct restorations, even though I don't personally have a car that could come close to qualifying.

That from a guy who greatly enjoys car shows, but hasn't entered a car in one for about 40 years. And BTW, I'm a also guy who AGREES with those that want to make mechanical improvements while keeping a stock body ...so long as they don't muck up a perfectly good original car, there are already plenty of incorrect cars out there to do that to... I'm just not sure NCRS judging is the place for these cars.

[Scott Myers]

Re: C1, Modified or Mutilated?

Gentlemen, What great responses, at first I wasn't sure that I was getting anything out of my membership $$ but this thread has confirmed what a buddy
of mine has said all along.....it's not just the cars, it's the people!!!
Vinne, you confirmed what I sort of thought to begin with, that there is a
place for a modified car in NCRS. As a new member #37044 I am still in AWE
at the breadth of knowledge contained here by so many people from so many different walks of life. My hat is off to all of you.

I will be looking for a local chapter to get involved with and will definately
take advantage of the NCRS functions, if for no other reason than what you said,
"you will learn so much about your car" Thanks again for all the support.

I look forward to meeting any of you at Monterey!!

P.S. Would you give John Waggoner a raise, this is the best managed site I have
ever come across.

[Larry Sherman]

Re: C1, Modified or Mutilated?

My $.02. I've had my 68 coupe since 1974 and my 66 conv. since 1980. Over those years each of the cars has had it's general character changed as my feelings changed. Mostly they have both moved a bit toward more stock than not. I am now beginning to think I would like to have a little more "hot rod" in my 66. Maybe I'll change it some---Maybe not. The main thing is, I want the great feeling of driving these babies. I'm not likely to ever want to show these cars, and I don't think I'll ever want them judged. (That feeling might change next year, too). Mostly I belong to the NCRS because I love to learn and you guys on this board are so knowledgable. Guys like Joe Lucia and Duke, and many more of you) are resources I would never have access to any other way. The Restorer and the available library are loaded with information. Mostly I "lurk" here, but occasionally I am able to lend a hand from my own meager experience. I know that I've learned enough to be a danger to myself, and I'm having a BALL doing this "Corvette stuff" I'm doing. Thanks to you all, and whether you're making yourself a show winner, a drag car, a driver or preserving a Survivor, you're doing EXACTLY the right thing if you're having fun. Again, My $.02. Larry