C2 Timing-Can't rotate the distributor - NCRS Discussion Boards

C2 Timing-Can't rotate the distributor

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  • Duke W.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • January 1, 1993
    • 15610

    #31
    Re: All Very Good Information

    Your example will theoetically work, but it's a moot point since swapping wires one position over and rotating the distibutor base 45 degrees to realign the new terminal indexing to the rotor tip will cause vacuum can interference on most Midyear engines. I believe that later Shark engines have the #1 wire indexed on a different cap terminal with the distributor base suitably rotated due to changes in the ignition shielding design.

    In my posts I have tried to address the practical problems associated with the inability to achieve proper timing before the vacuum can interferes with other components.

    The inability to achieve proper initial timing before the vacuum can interferes with something usually starts with installing the drive gear 180 out. This is the issue in the original post on this thread that I was trying to address. The "fix" is to move the wires over one postion and reinstall the distributor a tooth off.

    The drive gear has 13 teeth - 27.6 degree spacing. The eight cap terminals and cam lobe have eight positions - 45 degree spacing. With the coil wire indexed in the correct position on the cap, the gear on properly, and the distributor corrected installed on the engine, the rotor tip and cap terminals will be very closely aligned. If you swap the wire one position over, move the distributor one tooth, and rotate it to achieve correct #1 timing you have about 20 degrees of misalignment between the rotor and cap terminal. If the gear is 180 out the misalignment is halved.

    Will it work? Yes, but marginally.

    Since the single point ignition is marginal on energy to begin with, you can't afford to lose energy by forcing the spark to jump a big gap between the rotor and cap termimal. The greater the misalignment, the greater the frequency of intermittent misfires. This is what happens when the gear is installed backwards and someone tries to "fix" the inability to achieve initial timing by moving the wires one position over and installing the distributor a tooth off.

    You can determine the misalignment for any combination and some may be less than the example above.

    So, I return to and reiterate my basic premise that there is only ONE CORRECT WAY to assemble and install the distributor and index the plug wires on a Midyear small block engine, and if you deviate from this you're likely to have problems. This is the way I choose to do it, and I highly recommend the same to others.

    It's unfortunate that GM never mentioned in thier service publications - at least the ones I have - anything about proper indexing of the drive gear relative to the rotor tip. Since most guys never knew this, and many still do not know about it, there's about a 50/50 chance of getting it wrong, and then most resort to the jury rig of moving the distributor wires one position and reintalling the distributor a tooth off. It allows them to achieve the initial timing before the vacuum can interferes, but they have a weak spark and the engine runs poorly.

    This is why I harp about the distributor drive gear indexing and proper indexing of the plug wires. Indexing the drive gear properly is something we have to learn by experience. Once you know this and index the wires according to the applicable year service publication, you will be able to time the car and have maximum spark energy at the plug.

    Duke

    Comment

    • Werner R.
      Expired
      • March 3, 2008
      • 184

      #32
      Re: All Very Good Information

      duke, i agree. i only suggested moving wires to the fella that said his can hits somthing and prevents correct timing. i NEVER said to move the distributor shaft at all, and of course that is a dreadful idea. only move the body if necessary to get clearance for the can. most likely, someone had already moved his wires, and they were "out of place" and that is what caused the interference in the first place. take care and have a good corvette weekend.

      Comment

      • Everett Ogilvie

        #33
        Re: All Very Good Information

        Duke beat me to the punch, but I was about to say;

        The theoretical scenario of moving the wires to different positions around the cap and then turning the dist body to re-align with the rotor is just that - t****etical. Theoretically you could move the wires one position at a time, all the way around the cap, while rotating the dist body each time to realign. However, real-world cars have interference issues with shielding, the intake, the firewall, and tach cables that won't reach any farther than where they are currently positioned.

        The original post was from a fellow who says his vacuum can is hitting something. John's can is very near his shielding bracket. And his wires are off. That means his rotor is not indexed correctly. For the guys who can barely get their timing within range without nearly hitting something like shielding or the intake - they need to re-index the rotor, re-index the wires correctly, and then the dist body will fit into the factory allotted space beautifully, with room to turn it either way for timing purposes. The vacuum can won't hit anything, the tach cable won't be strained, and the timing will be right.

        This interference issue gets even worse on Shark cars, where space is at a premium and the shielding was changed - I had to straighten out the dist installation and wiring index problem on a Shark car that just would not time without the vacuum can hitting something.

        Comment

        • Werner R.
          Expired
          • March 3, 2008
          • 184

          #34
          Re: All Very Good Information

          john, yes. but, does your car run ok as it is setup?? are you having a problem with the vacuum can banging into somthing, or does the car run like crap etc?? see, what this method lets you do is to change the postion of the vacuum can relative to its surtroundings, in either direction. why i hesitate with your question is as follows: we do not know what a prior owner did regarding the relationship between your distributor and your cam. you cannot just move the wires one terminal over; you also have to rotate the distributor housing one terminal also, BUT IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION. so, in your situation, do NOT just move the wires [i assume your car is runniung well]. so, why do you want to change the position of the wires?? is it aesthetic only, from a purist point of view, or is the vacuum can banging against somthing, or does the car run like crap etc??
          let us know. i think if evereything is running well, and if the vacuum can is not badly cramped, you ought to leave well enough alone, no matter what the book shows.
          werner

          Comment

          • Duke W.
            Beyond Control Poster
            • January 1, 1993
            • 15610

            #35
            Re: All Very Good Information

            I guess we have different styles. I would not recommend a "fix" to a problem unless I understood the root cause. In the case of the thread that started this topic - can't get the timing dialed in because of vacuum can interference, which sounds similar to the case you are citing, I would recommend removing the distributor to check for proper indexing of drive gear as a first step. Then verify that the number one wire is properly indexed on the cap IAW the applicable year service manual, then install the distributor. This will GUARANTEE that you can dial in the correct initial timing and have the rotor properly aligned. Anything else is a shot in the dark.

            Been there, done that. Over 35 years ago the first time I removed and disassembled the distributor in my SWC, I installed the drive gear backwards. I read and followed the disassembly/assembly instructions in the '63 Corvette Shop Manual, but it said nothing about proper indexing of the drive gear. When I reinstalled the distributor I could not get the timing dialed in before the vacuum can hit the inlet manifold. From that point I tried different wire and installation indexing. The engine ran, but poorly. I can't remember how I finally figured out the gear installation indexing issue or if some old hand clued me in, but once I understood and corrected it, I've never had the problem again.. It's as simple as one, two, three - set the engine at the #1 intial timing point, index the gear and #1 wire correctly, install the distributor and rotate it until the points just open, start the engine, and set the timing with a light. This procedure has never failed.

            The root cause of the problem was improper installation of the drive gear and no amount of jury rigging would solve the problem. Being as how this little gem of system knowledge is not in Chevrolet service publications and is not understood by many owners, checking the drive gear installation is always the first troubleshooting procedure if you can't get the timing set without vacuum can interference.

            Duke

            Comment

            • Mike McKown

              #36
              Re: All Very Good Information

              Thank you for enlightening the masses.

              Comment

              • Mike McKown

                #37
                Re: All Very Good Information

                I got home today, went to the garage and popped out the delco. Guess what?
                THE GEAR IS ON WRONG! Knocked the pin out, moved the gear and put the pin back in. Put a blindfold on and dropped the distributor back in. Hit the key and it fired right up. No banging on the coil or manifold. Tach cable lines up for the first time since I've had this pig. 30 years of suffering for what? How could I be this studpid??????????

                Comment

                • Duke W.
                  Beyond Control Poster
                  • January 1, 1993
                  • 15610

                  #38
                  Re: All Very Good Information

                  Yep! That's where the problem usually starts - the drive gear 180 out.

                  Are you serious? It's been 180 out for 30 years???!!!

                  The next time a guy posts about not being able to get his timing dialed in before the vacuum can hits the manifold or shielding, you can write the treatise on how to correct it.

                  Duke

                  Comment

                  • Gary S.
                    Extremely Frequent Poster
                    • July 31, 1992
                    • 1628

                    #39
                    OK, I'll be the idiot and ask

                    about indexing the gear. I have pulled a few distributors out but only disassembled one on my 66. Now I read that there is a proper and improper way to put the drive gear back on? Now you tell me! Does anyone have a photo or a drawing of the drive gear on 180 degrees out? I am dealing with fuzzy memories of doing this three years ago and I can't recall that gear.

                    Gary

                    Comment

                    • Terry M.
                      Beyond Control Poster
                      • September 30, 1980
                      • 15573

                      #40
                      It is not a secret *TL*

                      It has been mentioned in The Corvette Restorer a number of times:
                      V 20 Number 2 Fall 1993 Article about distributor bushing replacement.
                      V 22 Number 2 Fall 1995 article titled "Distributor Drive Gear Installation"
                      Too long ago, then try:
                      V 28 Number 4 Spring 2002 Page 34, Item number 8 on the upper right of the page.
                      We do try our best to provide needed information.
                      Terry


                      Terry

                      Comment

                      • Gary S.
                        Extremely Frequent Poster
                        • July 31, 1992
                        • 1628

                        #41
                        Yes you do!

                        Off to my library I go.
                        Gary

                        Comment

                        • Mike McKown

                          #42
                          Dead serious! *NM*

                          Comment

                          • Duke W.
                            Beyond Control Poster
                            • January 1, 1993
                            • 15610

                            #43
                            Re: Dead serious!

                            No service manual contains everything. Back when I was a USAF Minuteman maintenance officer I had teams busted by QC for lack of "system knowledge" because it wasn't included in the fifty pounds of "Technical Orders" they had.

                            Such is the case with the distributor drive gear installation. God only knows why GM didn't explain this in the service manuals. It's something you have to learn by experience, and the lack of this system knowledge has created an incredible amount of problems over the years.

                            Duke

                            Comment

                            • Mike McKown

                              #44
                              Re: Dead serious!

                              Back when I was the Maintenence Sgt. in a mechanized infantry battalion in the Indiana Army National Guard, We didn't EVEN READ THE BOOKS to keep our armored personnel carriers running. Didn't have time on week-ends or two week summer camp either. Just jumped in and got it. All ours ran well. The ones that read the manuals usually stayed broken down for the duration of Summer Camp because they were reading books trying to figure out what was wrong. What do you think of that?

                              Mike

                              Comment

                              • Duke W.
                                Beyond Control Poster
                                • January 1, 1993
                                • 15610

                                #45
                                Re: Dead serious!

                                Your APCs were not nuclear weapons systems. The AF is pretty pickly about how the guys handle nukes, and we maintained about 99 percent "on alert" availability for the 150 Minuteman missiles we looked after. Keeping our nuclear systems safely in a continuous high alert status had a lot to do with why we won the cold war with the Soviet Union.

                                I'm not trying to knock the Guard or Reserves, but I think there is always a higher degree of professionalism in active duty units because it's the full time job, and SAC was an all volunteer outfit. There were a few who couldn't hack it and were transferred to other less strenuous career fields.

                                I think my AF experience has a lot to do with my attitude about working on cars, whether it is maintenance, restoration, or modification.

                                Duke

                                Comment

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