Are we all missing the point? Time for change?

[Dale P.]

I have owned, drag raced, street driven, repaired, modified and even restored Corvettes since 1973. I am NOT bragging just wondering what happened? By this I mean every part of every project was enjoyable. Then some where along the way the greed for money ruined it all. Pricing went through the roof. Dishonest people did whatever they could to make as much money as possible from those who didn't know a car was faked or the part was truly not original but a repo. I joined NCRS the first time to gain more knowledge I think in the mid 80's mainly because of my love for these cars.
Of course the more I learned the more I saw the dishonesty. Not with the NCRS but with the classic car industry as a whole. I think most people "BANK" on NCRS flight awards as validating that a corvette is as it is advertised to be. NCRS can not and should not ever get themselves into the validation business. Providing PERIOD CORRECT data via every form possible YES, but to validate a car or its documentation will lead to a disaster for the classic Corvette industries. With all the faked cars out there can you imagine the number of law suites!

So this brings me to my question should we as a group not hold any car (original or not) differently? We as a group are permitting the value of "an original car" (whether it truly is original or not) to far exceed that of a NOM, fender flared, candy apple red corvette. To me they are the same and their value is what the market will bring.

I would love to see all of these classics back on the road VS being pushed across an auction block on TV. The only way this is going to happen is to stop the greed for money.

I am sure this post will start a fire storm, but I'm tired of seeing faked cars bringing top dollar, other totally originals without documentation bring low bucks because that owner couldn't find it or know how to fake it. It's time for us to level the financial playing field so ALL classic cars can be enjoyed on the road being driven as was the original intent of all the muscle car manufacturers.

[Michael J.]

Re: Are we all missing the point? Time for change?

I have friends that don't see any problem here. They buy NOM, altered, modified C2 and C3s for low $$, drive and enjoy them all the time, and chuckle at people who want to pay top dollar for "original" cars of that era who don't drive them. They would not want anyone to "value" those cars the same as NCRS TF cars. And there are lots of people like this who love the situation as it is. To each his own.

[Bruce B.]

Re: Are we all missing the point? Time for change?

I have a matching numbers 62 Corvette with Hilborn injection which I converted to electronic.
I also have a 57 original 283 283HP car that the previous owner started to make into a Gasser. That's how I'm finishing it, straight axle, Olds rear end, flares on rear fenders, etc.
The original 57 correct complete FI engine and all original parts are stored in the garage.
I enjoy and like my cars.
My 65 coupe just went 2664 miles on the Hot Rod Power Tour.
If you don't work on them, drive them and enjoy them you are missing the point in MHO.

[William F.]

Re: Are we all missing the point? Time for change?

Problem I have with the original thread is that while author to want people to respect his modified Corvettes , he doesn't think there is merit in those who value original cars and wants NCRS to stop judging for originality. I personally have not yet received a top flight but certainly think those that have, have a right to be proud of their accomplishment. Also seems author wants to put a price control, if you will, on value of original cars or those who have received an NCRS award. Say what you will about value, but seems that original classic cars, whether Dusenburgs, Ferraris, Cobras, etc., or Corvettes, over the long run have more value than modified ones. Let the market and buyers/sellers decide.

[Roger G.]

Re: Are we all missing the point? Time for change?

I have owned, drag raced, street driven, repaired, modified and even restored Corvettes since 1973. I am NOT bragging just wondering what happened? By this I mean every part of every project was enjoyable. Then some where along the way the greed for money ruined it all. Pricing went through the roof. Dishonest people did whatever they could to make as much money as possible from those who didn't know a car was faked or the part was truly not original but a repo. I joined NCRS the first time to gain more knowledge I think in the mid 80's mainly because of my love for these cars.
Of course the more I learned the more I saw the dishonesty. Not with the NCRS but with the classic car industry as a whole. I think most people "BANK" on NCRS flight awards as validating that a corvette is as it is advertised to be. NCRS can not and should not ever get themselves into the validation business. Providing PERIOD CORRECT data via every form possible YES, but to validate a car or its documentation will lead to a disaster for the classic Corvette industries. With all the faked cars out there can you imagine the number of law suites!

So this brings me to my question should we as a group not hold any car (original or not) differently? We as a group are permitting the value of "an original car" (whether it truly is original or not) to far exceed that of a NOM, fender flared, candy apple red corvette. To me they are the same and their value is what the market will bring.

I would love to see all of these classics back on the road VS being pushed across an auction block on TV. The only way this is going to happen is to stop the greed for money.

I am sure this post will start a fire storm, but I'm tired of seeing faked cars bringing top dollar, other totally originals without documentation bring low bucks because that owner couldn't find it or know how to fake it. It's time for us to level the financial playing field so ALL classic cars can be enjoyed on the road being driven as was the original intent of all the muscle car manufacturers.

I just renewed my NCRS membership after a few years absence because I am interested in expanding the pool of people whom I can ask questions and appreciate a well done restoration whether the engine block is original or not. The concept of judging based on correctness seems fair to me. Independent of market value. Funny how many associate NCRS with numbers matching original.

So far as faked cars, huge value being placed on numbers, etc, I believe Pandora's box has been opened. So much money has been poured into 'originality', especially the engine block, I doubt you'll ever see a change. We have a new class of buyers who buy more for what it's worth or speculating on what it may be worth in the future rather than buying because they want a fun car to drive and do with what they please. This crowd will pay high premiums for thought to be originals. As another poster pointed out, this tends to keep the value of non originals within reach for many who aren't interested in investment value, much like the old days. Not necessarily a bad thing. For the value of NOMs or originals without documentation to rise would take more demand from the crowd who buys them. I haven't seen much of that yet. Is it because they are being driven away by fear of financial disaster, not being part of the club, etc, as much of the hype says? People who buy these cars for weekend driving and tinkering playing it safe? There are trade-offs when buying originals.

[Bruce B.]

Re: Are we all missing the point? Time for change?

We are now back to the point of MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
People like Rick Hendricks, who has unlimited resources now wants Corvettes.
They will be stored and never driven, what a waste.

[Dale P.]

Re: Are we all missing the point? Time for change?

Problem I have with the original thread is that while author to want people to respect his modified Corvettes , he doesn't think there is merit in those who value original cars and wants NCRS to stop judging for originality. I personally have not yet received a top flight but certainly think those that have, have a right to be proud of their accomplishment. Also seems author wants to put a price control, if you will, on value of original cars or those who have received an NCRS award. Say what you will about value, but seems that original classic cars, whether Dusenburgs, Ferraris, Cobras, etc., or Corvettes, over the long run have more value than modified ones. Let the market and buyers/sellers decide.

William,
I am NOT opposed to one restoring any car back to the way it was when delivered. (IE original). I don't believe that I implied that, if you took it that way >> sorry. What I am clearing opposed to is using NCRS awards as a method of validating a car as to its authenticity. I believe that if one really digs into NCRS judging we are simply agreeing with the car as presented as being "period correct"; NOT that the car is truly as it is presented. IE BB vs a SB as an example.
To my knowledge NO NCRS judge has ever made the statement that top flight = true original vehicle.

[Michael W.]

Re: Are we all missing the point? Time for change?

William,
I am NOT opposed to one restoring any car back to the way it was when delivered. (IE original). I don't believe that I implied that, if you took it that way >> sorry. What I am clearing opposed to is using NCRS awards as a method of validating a car as to its authenticity. I believe that if one really digs into NCRS judging we are simply agreeing with the car as presented as being "period correct"; NOT that the car is truly as it is presented. IE BB vs a SB as an example.
To my knowledge NO NCRS judge has ever made the statement that top flight = true original vehicle.

Try convincing the great unwashed masses that a TF does not = authenticated, certified, original, numbers-matching, no-hit body, virgin, blah blah blah.

If there's a flaw somewhere in the system, it's allowing 'one-shot wonders' ie. people who join up strictly to get a TF for their car and then disappear never to be seen again.

[Bruce B.]

Re: Are we all missing the point? Time for change?

My understanding is that NCRS Top Flight does NOT verify validation of original condition.
Many cars that are Top Flight have parts removed after judging and are therefore no longer Top Flight...
Buyer beware.

[William F.]

Re: Are we all missing the point? Time for change?

Nobody's business but Mr. Hendricks what he wants to pay or what he wants to do with his Corvettes. He obviously appreciates Corvettes for the classics they are. It's great that he has the resources that will allow him to care for these cars. I'll bet he won't flare any wheel wells , either.

[Gene M.]

Re: Are we all missing the point? Time for change?

[QUOTE=Dale Patches (26800);710984.................................... ....

So this brings me to my question should we as a group not hold any car (original or not) differently? We as a group are permitting the value of "an original car" (whether it truly is original or not) to far exceed that of a NOM, fender flared, candy apple red corvette. To me they are the same and their value is what the market will bring. .......................[/QUOTE]

Dale,
This is the only part of your post that had a question. The NCRS stands for national corvette restorers society. And yes it is all about restored cars not resto rods, modifieds or hot rods. So yes again it is about the restored cars being special as opposed to the resto rods, modifieds or hot rods. It has nothing to do with value. That value is between seller and purchaser. But if you watch the big auctions the resto mods are commanding some pretty big bucks.

I just don't see what you are trying to say. A person can do what ever they want with their own car even if it is not to your liking. Just sounds like complaining that prices are too high.......

[Richard L.]

Re: Are we all missing the point? Time for change?









Rick

[William F.]

Re: Are we all missing the point? Time for change?

Richard,
Great post!

[Dale P.]

Re: Are we all missing the point? Time for change?

Extremely simply put. As an NCRS member and corvette lover, I am so tired of corrupt sellers and misinformed buyers using NCRS flight awards as a means of saying "IF NCRS says it is a top flight BB , then it most be so". The NCRS has never authenticated a car to date via flight judging. I have no issues with awarding this type of award, but there should be a stipulation on that certificate that NCRS is not validating that the car is authentic.

[Michael J.]

Re: Are we all missing the point? Time for change?

Well, they really do say that on the certificate. The TF I received a few weeks ago at the Rocky Mountain Regional says this on the back in bold letters:

"NCRS does NOT certify or in any other way attest to the originality of any car receiving ANY NCRS judging award. NCRS judging awards represent the opinions of volunteer judges on a given date as they understand and interpret the standards, which may or may not be correct. Any subsequent purchaser, observer or judge should evaluate such car ONLY on the basis of their own knowledge and opinion and WITHOUT RELIANCE ON ANY NCRS JUDGING AWARD"

Don't think you can get more clear on it.