Why is it OK to modify our engines but not OK for paint & cosmetic improvements?

[Domenic T.]

It seems to be OK and accepted to lower engine C/R, cam, head gasket thickness, and timing. I see the engine as the heart of the car and think that it should be kept as it was engineered by GM. I know that fuel has changed and that is a big problem, but changing the C/R, timing, and other things makes it run like a station wagon! Seems that that is ok but if the paint job is not sloppy on the manifold or missing on the bell housing, it is not acceptable. If we improve on factory mistakes like paint runs, dullness, body lines, and let things rust like the exhaust, it is not OK?
I know, restore to original, and I respect that. So why is it OK to change the very reason some of us bought the vette?
When I change my timing to run pump gas I take a LARGE hit on HP. Yes it runs, but it does not perform. To each his own but I chose to keep the engine power as it was. My fault was that I have a hard time duplicating mistakes that were not supposed to be there in the first place. I don't think the workers were told to be sloppy around the weather stripping, shoot paint runs, bad finish and so on. What about the vette that came out straight and had no glue showing around the seals, better paint, and was actually like it was supposed to be? It would take a hit if judged.
Again I do respect the judging and do understand what NCRS means. Also I respect the fact that we restore it to our own standards.

Dom

[Mike F.]

Re: Why is it OK to modify our engines but not OK for paint & cosmetic improvements?

Dem's are the rules, love'm or leave'm.

[Michael W.]

Re: Why is it OK to modify our engines but not OK for paint & cosmetic improvements?

Dem's are the rules, love'm or leave'm.

Actually, it's not the rules. If the things the OP mentioned were judged there would be a deduct if found deviating. Pretty hard to judge compression ratio, cam profiles and ignition timing.

[Bill W.]

Re: Why is it OK to modify our engines but not OK for paint & cosmetic improvements?

I agree with Domenic . I love the sound of a solid lifter engine and the feel of power . I think anyone who uses smaller cams & pistons, is only cheating themselves of the thrill of owning and driving a high performance car . Can you flunk a PV if your solid lifter car sounds like grandmas sedan .

[Gene M.]

Re: Why is it OK to modify our engines but not OK for paint & cosmetic improvements?

Dom, I'm assuming you are asking from the stand point of NCRS flight judging, yes?

Flight judging is a visual thing. We can see if the wrong thick head gasket is used and they should deduct for such modification. Should be shim gasket around .019" thick. But it is difficult to verify the pistons, camshaft and other engine internals as we do not disassemble cars. A PV will disclose modifications if they are discernible from original.

[Domenic T.]

Re: Why is it OK to modify our engines but not OK for paint & cosmetic improvements?

Gene,
Actually, I do not know much about the different judging. My post was actually based on reading different posts. Maybe I will get the courage to get my car judged ( with a open mind) someday. I would think replicating certain mistakes might be hard to do. On the other hand, getting things to fit right and paint to look good is expensive and lots of work. I do spend hours & hours picking thru nuts & bolts to get the right ones where they go and checking dates on parts, part #s and so on. But I get carried away when painting and plating.

Dom

[Warren F.]

Re: Why is it OK to modify our engines but not OK for paint & cosmetic improvements?

Dom,
Agree with your thinking, I am with those that choose to keep their engines as configured by GM. On rare optioned drivetrains in Corvettes that is the heart of these cars, and some should be preserved as built.

[Terry D.]

Re: Why is it OK to modify our engines but not OK for paint & cosmetic improvements?

If you are not having your car judged, what do you care? There are lots of members who never have their cars judged. If you decide to have it judged then you have to have some rules to go by. If you think the rules are wrong then participate to make changes. It's kind of like complaining about the government but not voting! Just my two cents!

[Joe R.]

Re: Why is it OK to modify our engines but not OK for paint & cosmetic improvements?

Dom,

I believe you are in California and 91 octane is the best available at the pump. Here in Missouri, it's 93. My L72 (427 / 425) ran fine on pump gas. Maybe you could massage your heads to gain back (and then some) what you lose on retarded timing to keep it from rattling on 91 octane gas. Have you read Duke's San Diego convention slides?

As far as the rest of your post goes, I say it's your car, do what makes you happy!!! Sure, if you have it judged, you might get dinged where you have over-restored your Corvette, but so what? It's all about goals and expectations.

Joe

[Duke W.]

Re: Why is it OK to modify our engines but not OK for paint & cosmetic improvements?

It's quite easy to make internal engine modifications that substantially increase power and the useable rev range that will pass Flight Judging and PV as long as they don't affect idle behavior and general operating characteristics including low end torque. Examples include the "327 LT-1" and "Special 300 HP with McCagh Special Camshaft" configurations I developed that have won both Top Flights and passed PV tests. A key modication for both configurations is massaged heads that cannot be detected in Flight judging and better connecting rods that support higher revs (6500 with the McCagh Special and 7200 with the LT-1 cam with carefully set up '67-up OE valve springs) with improved durability over OE rods, especially the weak pre-'66 versions.

Compression does not need to be lowered from the typical as-built by Flint, which is typically several tenths of a point lower than advertised. Most owners lower compression because they are misguided by "engine builders" who think that current 91-93 PON fuel is equivalent to sixties vintage regular grade.

The OE small block head gasket is a .018" shim type (doubled from mid-'62 to the end of '63 production). I'm not aware that measuring it is in any of the Judging Guides, but I often do so in chapter juding for my own edification and information for the owner, but I don't deduct points if it's thicker than OE. Since there are no current .018" small block shim gaskets available that I am aware of, a .018" gasket is a good indication that the heads have never been off since the engine was assembled by Flint.

A SoCal Chapter member I know recently acquired a low mileage '65 FI Coupe with .018" thick head gaskets, so the heads have probably never been off. I verified that the spark advance map is OE (24 deg. centrifugal all in by 2350 and an in-spec 236 16 VAC), and I set the total WOT advance at 39 degrees (34 degrees total idle advance, 55 degrees total cruise advance at 2350-up). It has never shown a hint of detonation even in close to 100 degree weather on California 91 PON gasoline.

Duke

[Domenic T.]

Re: Why is it OK to modify our engines but not OK for paint & cosmetic improvements?

Dom,

I believe you are in California and 91 octane is the best available at the pump. Here in Missouri, it's 93. My L72 (427 / 425) ran fine on pump gas. Maybe you could massage your heads to gain back (and then some) what you lose on retarded timing to keep it from rattling on 91 octane gas. Have you read Duke's San Diego convention slides?

As far as the rest of your post goes, I say it's your car, do what makes you happy!!! Sure, if you have it judged, you might get dinged where you have over-restored your Corvette, but so what? It's all about goals and expectations.

Joe

Joe,
Right you are, 91 at the pump. I did not read some of Dukes writings other than what was here on the TD. Reason is that I solved the problem years ago and have to stay within a tank of gas from home. I have used factory timing, C/R, and a 50/50 mix of avgas since the 70's. on a driver I used water injection by Edelbrock which worked well
when I was away from my stach of avgas.
yes,it's what makes you happy. It's nice to park at a show and have a crowd around your work admiring it. I guess one can cheat a little with the engine as long as they don't get caught, and that's OK if that makes them happy. I agree with Duke on the heads, i liked to cheat the other way and beef things up a bit cleaning the heads up a bit.

DOM