Friction Modifier???

[Joe C.]

I have a RS600 transmission, which is essentially a Borg Warner T45, modified by Kiesler Engineering by replacing the bellhousing with an adapter plate for a Chevrolet mount as well as a custom input shaft/gear and corresponding countershaft to match the input gear.

I removed the front cover and discovered heat discoloration on the input gear, but almost none on every other gear in the transmission. This trans was designed to be filled with ATF (non-synthetic). The car is equipped with a 475 horsepower 327 which is revved to 7750 at the drag strip.

This trans uses carbon fiber cone clutches. Can I add a friction modifier, such as zinc/phosphorous to the ATF to help the input gear and not affecting the cone clutches??

[Steve G.]

Re: Friction Modifier???

Are you sure the heat discoloration is from operation and not manufacturing? I'd be surprised to find heat discoloration on one gear and not the mate. I would also want to check the bearing adjacent to the discolored gear. I'd be very reluctant to deviate from the recommended fluid. If all their other transmissions have worked fine with this fluid I would be more interested in finding out why this one won't.
Steve

[Terry M.]

Re: Friction Modifier???

Joe
I would think some communication with Kiesler might clarify your question(s), but I have never had occasion to deal with them. Seems worth a try to me.

[Joe C.]

Re: Friction Modifier???

Joe
I would think some communication with Kiesler might clarify your question(s), but I have never had occasion to deal with them. Seems worth a try to me.

Terry,
Kiesler is out of business. The input shaft/gear together with the countershaft whose driven gear engeges the input gear were made in very limited numbers expressly for the RS600. There were probably less than 200 of those parts made.

[Joe C.]

Re: Friction Modifier???

Are you sure the heat discoloration is from operation and not manufacturing? I'd be surprised to find heat discoloration on one gear and not the mate. I would also want to check the bearing adjacent to the discolored gear. I'd be very reluctant to deviate from the recommended fluid. If all their other transmissions have worked fine with this fluid I would be more interested in finding out why this one won't.
Steve

The discoloration is on the gear teeth and definitely due to heat. Because the input gear is at the very front of the transmission, and above the level of the fluid, it is lubricated by splash from its mating gear, the driven gear on the countershaft. I suspect that acceleration at the drag strip causes the ATF to slosh toward the rear of the trans, temporarily starving the input gear of lube/cooling. The 12 second blast down the 1/4 mile with shifts at 7750 might be just enough to overheat that gear and cause the galling that I see. I was thinking of adding something like ZDDP, but don't know how it would react with the carbon fiber cone clutches.

Because the driven gear on the countershaft is lower , it is immersed in the ATF and less prone to starvation due to slosh. This might explain why the discoloration and galling is not as severe on the mating gear. Thoughts welcome.

[Steve G.]

Re: Friction Modifier???

The discoloration is on the gear teeth and definitely due to heat. Because the input gear is at the very front of the transmission, and above the level of the fluid, it is lubricated by splash from its mating gear, the driven gear on the countershaft. I suspect that acceleration at the drag strip causes the ATF to slosh toward the rear of the trans, temporarily starving the input gear of lube/cooling. The 12 second blast down the 1/4 mile with shifts at 7750 might be just enough to overheat that gear and cause the galling that I see. I was thinking of adding something like ZDDP, but don't know how it would react with the carbon fiber cone clutches.

Because the driven gear on the countershaft is lower , it is immersed in the ATF and less prone to starvation due to slosh. This might explain why the discoloration and galling is not as severe on the mating gear. Thoughts welcome.

If bottom gear is in the oil, the top gear has plenty of lubrication. Doesn't matter which gear puts it there, the oil is between the teeth. There is no way one gear alone starves.

The conditions of operation are not anything new. Transmissions have been operating under those conditions forever without heating anything to the point of discoloration. M22's right out of the box could do that. Besides which, it's only operating for under 10 seconds. You could probably do that much with just the assembly lube without heating it.

The discoloration/heating did not happen because of a deficiency in the lube. Changing the lube formula is not dealing with the root cause.

If the adjacent gear is not damaged I would suspect a defective drive gear first. Perhaps something wrong with the heat treating process.

How much clearance between the teeth? Can you hold the cluster and feel a slight rock with the input shaft?
Steve

[Joe C.]

Re: Friction Modifier???

How much clearance between the teeth? Can you hold the cluster and feel a slight rock with the input shaft?

Yes, there is a bit of lash in the gear mesh.

[Terry M.]

Re: Friction Modifier???

Terry,
Kiesler is out of business. The input shaft/gear together with the countershaft whose driven gear engeges the input gear were made in very limited numbers expressly for the RS600. There were probably less than 200 of those parts made.

I knew that idea sounded too simple. I should have guessed at that "out of business" road block.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Friction Modifier???

Kiesler is out of business. .

Joe,

Keisler Engineering was bought and reopened.
Allegedly some of the same employees work for the new company. So, if you haven't tried a call to them...

http://shiftsst.com/

[Joe C.]

Re: Friction Modifier???

Joe,

Keisler Engineering was bought and reopened.
Allegedly some of the same employees work for the new company. So, if you haven't tried a call to them...

http://shiftsst.com/

Patrick,
Already called Silver Sport.
They only sell TKO and T56 gearboxes.
They have discontinued the SS series transmissions, which were the next gen of the RS500/600.
They have no parts for the discontinued gearboxes.
Another forum response tells me that Shafi Kiesler himself, now works for SS, so I'll try talking to him directly.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Friction Modifier???

Patrick,
Already called Silver Sport.
They only sell TKO and T56 gearboxes.
They have discontinued the SS series transmissions, which were the next gen of the RS500/600.
They have no parts for the discontinued gearboxes.
Another forum response tells me that Shafi Kiesler himself, now works for SS, so I'll try talking to him directly.

OK, thanks for the update.

[Joe C.]

Re: Friction Modifier???/Update

Patrick,
Already called Silver Sport.
They only sell TKO and T56 gearboxes.
They have discontinued the SS series transmissions, which were the next gen of the RS500/600.
They have no parts for the discontinued gearboxes.
Another forum response tells me that Shafi Kiesler himself, now works for SS, so I'll try talking to him directly.

UPDATE:

Shafi Kiesler does not work for SS. He lives in the upper midwest (Wisconsin?), and SS is in TN. He does no consulting for them and is not associated with Silver Sport in any way, according to Jack Silver. Silver Sport DOES put together kits to retrofit the LGT 600 to a Corvette; however, a LGT 600 (the basis for the now extinct SS600) must first be purchased from a Legend distributor (there are 4 listed) and then shipped to Silver Sport for modifications. SS then ships the modified LGT600 with the kit parts to the customer.

I have tried to call Shafi on his cell phone, but he has not returned my calls. I wonder why? There are a lot of guys looking to break more than his legs.

[Frank D.]

Re: Friction Modifier???/Update

Interesting. I have a TKO-600 in my '61 and was considering going with the RS-600 because of the notchy TKO shifting and dicey 2nd to 3rd shifting at high RPM. I think now I'm glad I stayed pat.... Shafi even offered me an equitable trade in at the NCRS show at Kissimmee several years back but I didn't pull the trigger...fortunately...

[Joe C.]

Re: Friction Modifier???/Update

Interesting. I have a TKO-600 in my '61 and was considering going with the RS-600 because of the notchy TKO shifting and dicey 2nd to 3rd shifting at high RPM. I think now I'm glad I stayed pat.... Shafi even offered me an equitable trade in at the NCRS show at Kissimmee several years back but I didn't pull the trigger...fortunately...

Nothing wrong with the transmission. I had no idea the gear was overheated until I opened it up to replace a shift fork, which I had cracked by missing a powershift at 7500 RPM. I drag race the car, and shift at 7500, so suspect that the forward part of the trans suffers from lube starvation during acceleration and very high RPM.

The trans shifts like butter at all times though, and has been everything that Shafi promised it would be. It was extensively tested by Kiesler Engineering at constant 6000 RPM where sump temp was monitored. If you don't subject yours to severe duty like mine, then it will probably last forever. This trans is no longer available. If you want a smooth shifting 5 speed of brand new design, you should buy the LGT/SS hybrid that I mentioned above. It is very pricey, however, at 4200 plus the price of the install kit which probably places it close to 5K.

[Steve G.]

Re: Friction Modifier???/Update

Nothing wrong with the transmission. I had no idea the gear was overheated until I opened it up to replace a shift fork, which I had cracked by missing a powershift at 7500 RPM. I drag race the car, and shift at 7500, so suspect that the forward part of the trans suffers from lube starvation during acceleration and very high RPM.

The trans shifts like butter at all times though, and has been everything that Shafi promised it would be. It was extensively tested by Kiesler Engineering at constant 6000 RPM where sump temp was monitored. If you don't subject yours to severe duty like mine, then it will probably last forever. This trans is no longer available. If you want a smooth shifting 5 speed of brand new design, you should buy the LGT/SS hybrid that I mentioned above. It is very pricey, however, at 4200 plus the price of the install kit which probably places it close to 5K.

I'm not sure I would give the trans that kind of a pos referral if the gear heated and discolored from the kind of use you're describing. 7500 with a crash box on a drag strip isn't really anything out of the ordinary or new. And I've never seen piles of input gears in scrap bins.

Quality of the frt gear in my opinion, which puts the quality of the whole assembly in question. Would be enough for me to avoid one.
Steve