66 m-22

[Steve G.]

I believe I know one of the fifteen cars alleged to have the m-22 and would like to confirm that. To that end, in as much as it appears to be known there were only 15, is there a registry or record of the vin #'s?

What we have on this end is the original POP and the fact that we have known the car since 1974. It was a very original car in 74 with the exception of a date appropriate CE block. It had the 4.10 diff and the m-22 in it in 74 with everything around it stock and original, suggesting the m-22 had not been a hot rodding improvement.

I have sent a message to the original selling dealer, Smith Chev in Idaho Falls Id, but didn't get a response. The org owner, Leone F. Marlowe from S. Stout Ave in Blackfoot ID draws a blank on any Internet searches. Orig selling salesmen, Theron Gambles passed in 07.
Anyone from the area that might recall the car or shed some light? Oh, silver coupe with underbody exhaust and still had the hubcaps on in 74.

Steve

[Joe L.]

Re: 66 m-22

I believe I know one of the fifteen cars alleged to have the m-22 and would like to confirm that. To that end, in as much as it appears to be known there were only 15, is there a registry or record of the vin #'s?

What we have on this end is the original POP and the fact that we have known the car since 1974. It was a very original car in 74 with the exception of a date appropriate CE block. It had the 4.10 diff and the m-22 in it in 74 with everything around it stock and original, suggesting the m-22 had not been a hot rodding improvement.

I have sent a message to the original selling dealer, Smith Chev in Idaho Falls Id, but didn't get a response. The org owner, Leone F. Marlowe from S. Stout Ave in Blackfoot ID draws a blank on any Internet searches. Orig selling salesmen, Theron Gambles passed in 07.
Anyone from the area that might recall the car or shed some light? Oh, silver coupe with underbody exhaust and still had the hubcaps on in 74.

Steve

Steve------


How do you know it's equipped with an M-22? Also, does it have the car's VIN derivative stamped on the transmission. If it is an M-22 and it has the car's VIN derivative stamped on the transmission, then I'd say that's a pretty good indication that it's an original M-22. Of course, it could be an original main case with changed internals but I'd think that's unlikely.

[Steve G.]

Re: 66 m-22

I know it to be n m-22 from both the noise driving beside it (there's no mistaking the sound that gave the m-22 it's Rock Crusher name), having seen the gears inside it and that since first knowing the car it was a claim that was made. The vin derivative on the case only tells that the case is orig to the car, not that the internals are original to the case. As you know you can make any Muncie into an m-22 by replacing the internals.

Steve

[Larry E.]

Re: 66 m-22

Steve: I also am interested in this subject and have taken several seminairs with Al Grenning. IIRC the 15 where delivered to racers and where almost all stamped IP. Towanda records show only two L72-M22 where produced and probably stamped IK (Not sure though) The fifteen came from the catagory of "experimental" on the Towanda sheets that I saw. The M22 where only installed in the very early 1966 and the rather late 1966 (around mid June). This came from the engineering sheets Al gave us. The only way your POP would prove it would be a M22 would be if the VIN
was in the date windows above or it it was stamped IK. If IP it could mean just a regular L72 with muncie M20 or M21. BTW: Alan Colvin has a list of when all M22 where made (exact date) he got from GM. Larry

[Steve G.]

Re: 66 m-22

Larry,
The POP is stamped IP. I don't have the POP in front of me, but apparently the date stamped on it is 11-29-65. I don't have the vin handy, but would that give us a closer indication on date?
Steve

[Larry E.]

Re: 66 m-22

Larry,
The POP is stamped IP. I don't have the POP in front of me, but apparently the date stamped on it is 11-29-65. I don't have the vin handy, but would that give us a closer indication on date?
Steve

Steve: Not sure; it may fit the window but the hard part would be to tell the difference between a M22 from a M20-M21 on the POP. See if there is a tag on the transmission. Its anybodys guess but it is my opinion there where 15 (something other than stock L-72 with M22's) sold to pure racing teams. Plus a (POSSIBILITY) of two stock L-72 with M-22(With a IK stamp) sold to the general public. Larry

[Steve G.]

Re: 66 m-22

Steve: Not sure; it may fit the window but the hard part would be to tell the difference between a M22 from a M20-M21 on the POP. See if there is a tag on the transmission. Its anybodys guess but it is my opinion there where 15 (something other than stock L-72 with M22's) sold to pure racing teams. Plus a (POSSIBILITY) of two stock L-72 with M-22(With a IK stamp) sold to the general public. Larry

Is that date on the POP the date of sale. Obviously with the owners name on it the POP was produced at the point of sale. I'm going to get the vin and see if I can find the build date from that.

Sure would be great if the dealer had the sales order.
Steve

[Joe L.]

Re: 66 m-22

Is that date on the POP the date of sale. Obviously with the owners name on it the POP was produced at the point of sale. I'm going to get the vin and see if I can find the build date from that.

Sure would be great if the dealer had the sales order.
Steve

Steve------


I'd be amazed if any dealer would still have 50 year old records. Even small-town dealers that stay under the same ownership for 50 years won't keep records for that long.

[Joe L.]

Re: 66 m-22

I know it to be n m-22 from both the noise driving beside it (there's no mistaking the sound that gave the m-22 it's Rock Crusher name), having seen the gears inside it and that since first knowing the car it was a claim that was made. The vin derivative on the case only tells that the case is orig to the car, not that the internals are original to the case. As you know you can make any Muncie into an m-22 by replacing the internals.

Steve

Steve------


Yes, the internals could have been changed. However and as I mentioned, in the case of the car you describe I highly doubt that would have occurred. Prior to 1974 (the year from which you've known the car), one could buy a complete, brand new M-22. The cost of it would have been considerably less than the cost of buying the new internal pieces to "change-over" an existing transmission. Also, folks at that time were usually not concerned with preserving "original numbers", especially in the case of a car that already had a "CE" block.

Does the transmission have a drain plug AND does that drain plug appear to be original to the transmission (e.g. do the fill plug and drain plug appear identical?)

[Steve G.]

Re: 66 m-22

Yes, Joe, I suspect the same thing. They are still in business and appear to have gotten fairly big which makes it seem even less likely. They don't have an e-mail address on their website so I sent them a message through their facebook page and did not get a reply. As we speak I am in the process of writing a snail mail letter to them to try and confirm the absence of the docs. I just finished a letter to the current occupants of the address shown for the orig owners to see if I can track him down.

Got the full skinny on the POP.

STD 986 194376S1020009 H

10922IPH FB0915W 11

XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXX
BLACKFOOT , IDA/


Looks like a later car.

Steve

[Steve G.]

Re: 66 m-22

It's been a long time since I've been under the car/had the trans out, but my recollection is that it did have a drain plug and it would have stood out to me if it had been anything but the orig style square head plug.

I'm fairly certain the car is a legit M-22 car for all the reasons you suggest. But all that evidence would be seen as circumstantial if we were in a court room. And in our hobby, we'd never get a conviction on that evidence. So I've decided to see if I can find some conclusive evidence, if any exists.

It's not actually even my car, it's belonged to two of my close friends at different times (both have owned it twice) and currently resides with one of them. I've followed it and done lots of work on it over the years. Whether it can be proven to be a legit M-22 or not, I can tell you driving it is about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on.
Steve

[Wayne M.]

Re: 66 m-22

Steve -- couple of mis-reads on that Protect-o-Plate. One too many zeros on the VIN. I suspect it is ....2009, based on the September dates on the engine and the differential.

Also, the first character on the engine code is the letter "T" (not 1). There should be another group of letter/numbers for the transmission (ie. P0916).

[Steve G.]

Re: 66 m-22

Thanks Wayne,
The info I got had previously been recorded off the POP by the guy that first owned it in 74, not the present owner. I suspect you're right about the 2009 number, that would also coincide with what we believe was the sale date, Nov 29/65.

Wish I had the plate in frt of me, but it's a little hard to get to now so we're working from old recordings.

Should the POP not also have the sale date and dealer info?

Steve

[Wayne M.]

Re: 66 m-22

Should the POP not also have the sale date and dealer info?

Yes, but on the page opposite the P-o-P in the "Owner Protection Plan" booklet. Also should have the dealer name, address and dealer's authorized rep signature.

[Larry E.]

Re: 66 m-22

FWIW: Had to find my old notes. The metal tag attached to the Trainsmission should be:
3879986 or 3879987. Larry