Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

[Frank D.]

I get different stories on this topic. I would think a hard point deduct +/- 10% or so should be easy to calculate for aftermarket A/C. Here are the areas in question:

1. Elimination of the original heat/defrost parts and replacement with Vintage Air components,
2. Movement of alternator from PS to DS (my '63 actually has the correct alternator for an "air" car)
3. Change of fan (bigger diameter) and fan clutch (Hayden heavy duty version)

I would think a total deduct for the heater; partial for alternator; partial for fan/clutch.
What would those numbers be out of the total of 4500 and does that 'kill the car' for a Top Flight on its own ?

If so, then I don't see any point in getting the car judged; if not I may undertake getting it judged...
I think its should be a simple question to answer...

[Edward J.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

Frank, wiring harness, alternator brackets, belts, voltage and horn relay mounting, pulleys, fan, heater box and fan motor, rad. support extra holes, fire wall extra holes drilled, dash area mod.s?? hood release and vent cables?, heater controls?? maybe someone can add more??

[Frank D.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

I sorta got the impression all those things weren't hit individually (and I could be wrong) but more like a wholesale deduct for major areas like heater/alternator.

If you're correct then even with an otherwise perfect car; anything with aftermarket A/C is dead on arrival....

Again though - seems like a simple question; what is the total point deduction for a C2 with Vintage Air A/C installed per the company's instructions ? 150 pts ? 300 pts ? More ?

Nobody has quantified this at some point ? Anybody have a judging sheet with this data ?

[Richard M.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

Frank, A few weeks after we got Cathie's Silver Blue Coupe in '07, with Aftermarket A/C, we brought it to Kissimmee '08 Regional for Bowtie evaluation. The car had it's original 300hp and original Powerglide. A little rough but folks here on the TDB convinced us to take it for the "fun" of the process.

We were new to the process and there was some confusion about it's entry into the event, but we got over that and had a good time. I even had my NOM '59 judged at the same event for the fun and learning experience. Just missed 2nd Flight due to OP disasters(blown repro T3 headlight, cold start issue, lighter malfunction), but we went with both cars to have fun. We did.

The SWC was actually Judged, but point deducts were not noted on the sheets, only the deduct notations as part of the eval. I'll dig up the copies of the sheets and see what the notes were regarding the A/C.

This is when we hauled it home to FL from Virginia.
63trip8.jpg

Engine bay with the AC. Prior owner didn't move the Alternator. '67 brake system didn't help the cause either. But the judges really liked the rest of the car. The worst thing about this install method was the A/C hose routing behind the distributor shield.
PC080016.jpgPC080017.jpgPC080018.jpg

As a aside, if you go without regard for Flight Results, you will have a much better time. I know it'd be great to get a TF Blue Ribbon, but even though your car has some modifications it would be a fine candidate on the show field no matter what the outcome. You've got a great car and it' would be in good company at any judged event.

You may consider getting it judged at the Chapter Meet in the Fall(Howey Hills/Tavares?) to get some actual deduct explanations, and then decide if you want to go further at a Regional.

Rich

[Frank D.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

In addition to 'knocking down' the gloss on the door jambs and some nuts/bolts/screw minor issues I have a list (attached) of bigger stuff to undertake for judging. Except for bias tires and a shifter I have everything else on the list; including non-DOT T3 headlamps, original tail lights, etc..

But if the A/C is a deal killer I wasn't going to go to all that trouble.

THAT'S what I'm trying to determine.

[John S.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

Frank,
I will dig out my judging sheets from Tucson regional (2012 I believe) and post the deducts. My car is a 67 so the alternator issue is moot as it is already on the drivers side. As a note, I did not follow the vintage a/c instructions to the letter as it would have had me drilling holes. Car is a former Duntov winner and I was just not comfortable doing that. That being said, I believe the car scored around a 97 and was over 100 withe the 500 mile driving bonus. I do prefer to drive my car and was not in the summer in So. Cal. As it is a black car I chose the add on air so I could drive it whenever I want. I do agree with other opinions to go for judging and try not to stress out. Fun experience and the knowledge you learn about your own car is well worth it. Got a Lon list of stuff to do today but will try and get that out and post results.

[Don H.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

Frank
you are over analyzing and coming at judging from the wrong point of view. There is no standardized deduction for "added air" as each meet is different and has different judges. If by some coincidence you caught interior and mechanical judges who actually had previously installed vintage air they would know the minutea you know about the install and might take copious deducts. But that is not likely and most judges will focus on the most obvious changes from the install. Different judges know and focus on different things generally prescribed by the lines on the judging sheets. There is no scoring line for "added air". So the judges will pick up what they think of and what is obvious to them given their experience and time constraints. Suggestion: sign up for the next FLA chapter meet. Do any prep you care to do on your car overall and ensure all operational aspects work. Be sure to have the gimme extras ie decal, FE and batt cut off. Have your two keys with knockouts, glove box contents, tire lock and boot, correct equivalent size radial tires of any brand if you do not have correct Dot bias tires on the car so to not full deduct on tires. Don't fret at all about your added air. Drive to the meet for the driving points. Bring fender covers, wrenches, chairs, hat, cooler, snacks, and a good attitude. Plan to have a good time. You will and will learn a lot about your car and come away with a ribbon.

Add: Quartz clock is so common and simple that it has special handling. Other mods are not so common nor simple.

[Frank D.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

Frank
you are over analyzing and coming at judging from the wrong point of view. There is no standardized deduction for "added air" as each meet is different and has different judges. If by some coincidence you caught interior and mechanical judges who actually had previously installed vintage air they would know the minutea you know about the install and might take copious deducts. But that is not likely and most judges will focus on the most obvious changes from the install. Different judges know and focus on different things generally prescribed by the lines on the judging sheets. There is no scoring line for "added air". So the judges will pick up what they think of and what is obvious to them given their experience and time constraints. Suggestion: sign up for the next FLA chapter meet. Do any prep you care to do on your car overall and ensure all operational aspects work. Be sure to have the gimme extras ie decal, FE and batt cut off. Have your two keys with knockouts, glove box contents, tire lock and boot, correct equivalent size radial tires of any brand if you do not have correct Dot bias tires on the car so to not full deduct on tires. Don't fret at all about your added air. Drive to the meet for the driving points. Bring fender covers, wrenches, chairs, hat, cooler, snacks, and a good attitude. Plan to have a good time. You will and will learn a lot about your car and come away with a ribbon.

So much for the much touted "judging against an objective standard"....

I basically already have all of the things done mentioned above, but would also do better tackling my 'to do' list in post #5 above.

I'm not stressing over any of this.... I'm a little surprised there wouldn't be some non-subjective baseline for common mods; e.g. Vintage Air or Detroit Speed headlight conversion. There certainly is for a quartz clock - a full deduct is explicitly called for.

[Donald A.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

including non-DOT T3 headlamps...

Hi Frank, wanted to offer an opinion on your headlight plan. FWIW original T3s are about 50 years old and very regularly smoke up (go poof) at judging events and everywhere else. Just one bulb goes poof and that is a 25 point hit. Repro T3s are available at all the usual vendors and are correct except for small DOT logo bottom left area. Standard deduct for DOT T3s that are otherwise correct is just 3 points. So that is why I keep the repro ones on my car, you may want to consider that! Good luck with your car!

[Loren L.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

It would seem likely that in order to get a clear answer that would apply everywhere, you're going to have to contact your Team Leader and ask him to state the areas that will be affected and to what degree.

[Frank D.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

Yes - I've heard that. Evidently there was a run of repop T3s at certain vendors that did not have the DOT logo (according to the Corvette Forum) but that supply has recently (like in the last three months) been completely depleted - so all the repros now carry the logo....

[Tracy C.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

So much for the much touted "judging against an objective standard"....

I'm not stressing over any of this.... I'm a little surprised there wouldn't be some non-subjective baseline for common mods; e.g. Vintage Air or Detroit Speed headlight conversion. There certainly is for a quartz clock - a full deduct is explicitly called for.

Frank,

You can download the judging sheets for your car here...

https://www.ncrs.org/services/judging-score-sheets.php

Points assignment are defined for each line. You must retain at least 10% in the originality column to glean any of the condition points.

Adding vintage A/C is not a deal killer for T/F all by itself. You will only lose points for things that were removed, moved or modified as part of the installation. Added components are ignored otherwise.

As previously mentioned get your car judged at a chapter meet near you. As long as you are member of NCRS you can have your car judged by any chapter.

Check for the nearest location on the events page. Keep in mind, this is a dynamic listing. New events pop up all the time.

https://www.ncrs.org/services/coming-events.php

tc

[Frank D.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

Thanks I'll download those.

I'll try to get the car into the local Florida "Howey-in-the-Hills" judging this fall I guess.
I'll swap some easy things around for the points but just have to see what hits I take for some non-factory mods that I've added.

I was just hoping to get an early 'reading' on how bad I'd get slapped for the A/C...

[John S.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

Frank,
As promised here are my results from 3 years ago. As a foot note, Don H. Hit the nail on the head. Never going to be exactly the same from one meet to the next. remember that people are human and everyone is different. After going thru my sheets I come to a total of 20 points deducted. Overall I think that is more then fair. Honestly you could loose far more then that in tires and battery! I have broken down the point deductions below. Do remember that I did not drill any holes or ad extra bolts if not needed.

2 points for ntfp side trim panels (IMHO it should have been a full 3 and 3 on this one)
1 point for fresh air pull poor fit ( Vintage Air side trim panels are barely except able)
2 + 2 (full originality and condition) for signal flasher and capacitor. I should have received some points for both as I have an original flasher & there is no capacitor as it is a radio delete car = no capacitor. Note that the signal flasher is relocated with this install.
3 + 3 (full o & c) for heater assy.
4 + 3 (full o & c) for heater box and fan motor.
It was noted that the water pump and balancer pulleys were ntfp but no points were taken. Some points should have been taken here.
Overall I think the judging was more then fair and honestly probably would not affect a good car. Also, after looking at my sheets I had misstated that I had a 97 score in the earlier post. It was actually 96. I hope this helps you in your quest and I surely hope you decide to get your car flight judged!

[Frank D.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

That is what I was looking for and quite informative. I thought the 'hits' would be more far ranging....like the smaller glove box interior with Vintage Air A/C and perhaps the added condensor/drier arrangement and other such things. I'm actually encouraged by these stats; seems a reasonable approach to incorporating the mod into the judging process.

Thanks !