67/435

[Ara G.]

Re: 67/435

Understood but, surely we all agree, under the NCRS system, judging IS highly critical, as it should be. If one chooses to bring any Corvette for judging, they should expect an intensely thorough inspection of each component and, that intensity should come as no surprise to anyone. Anything less would be nothing more than...a show and shine.

Long live the NCRS way!

Couldn't agree more

[Steve B.]

Re: 67/435

Intensity is one thing, but common courtesy is always necessary and expected, at least by me. After my '67 L71 suffered a dreaded "NTFP" call on the engine pad at a Regional, even though it had an NCRS verified tank sticker inspection as a real deal L71 when it left St. Louis, a member (and higher level judge) who I thought was an old friend offered me an unstamped, proper date coded L71 block. I said why would I want to replace my correct dated coded but pad re-stamped block, and he said: "Well at least with my block then car would be honest and people won't look down their noses at you and snicker behind your back"…..true story.

That's a sad state of affairs. At least your car was a real 435, no shame in that. Once again the greed monster rears its ugly head.

[Richard M.]

Re: 67/435

Jack,

I highly recommend that you enlist a specialist to help you.

I had the absolute pleasure, albeit a true awakening of other facets regarding these unique and highly scrutinized cars, by having Mark Donnally come here to give a close eye to a similar 1967 Corvette I have here. It is owned by a distant very good friend of mine.

My very good local friend who is a renowned restorer of automotive antiques, classics, and Corvettes near me here in Florida came here a few weeks ago to help me review the car. He recommended Mark to visit. We took his advice. He did this to help us prevent potential negativity of the car if we decided to haphazardly go to the "next step" on the judging field.

We learned much about the car together to help make our decision as to what to do with it when completed. Because the Tank Sheet was deteriorated beyond recognition when we lifted the never before removed body, we have decided to pause and have enlisted the services of a Ancestral Specialist to help us find prior owners and ideally find a more definitive history of the car's lineage. This is now in process and we've made much progress. It's a long shot but we wouldn't know unless we tried.

Yes, I agree you need the Judging guide, and books, etc for the details to help you learn, but I do highly recommend you have someone physically work with you regarding your search. In my restoration experience I have learned much about these cars but there are hidden pieces of the puzzles that only expertly experienced minds know about. Please don't try to do this alone. Whether you are considering a purchase for "pleasure", a "driver" or a "Flight Candidate", it will be the best decision to get professional help, to smartly help your quest.

Rich

[Mark D.]

Re: 67/435

Intensity is one thing, but common courtesy is always necessary and expected...

I agree, Michael, but, common courtesy is a two way street.

To read the TDB, one would think it's only judges who, occasionally, behave badly. I've witnessed owners behaving badly but, I know it's the exception, rather than the rule. I don't feel the need to bring it up, over and over.

I was raised to follow the Golden Rule. I'm sure I've strayed, a time or two (thousand) but, we should all, in my opinion, treat others as we would wish to be treated.

Kramden

[Roy S.]

Re: 67/435

This is indeed unfortunate and these type individuals deserve to be identified, I would suggest that in the future in a post such as below you add a few words - please see bold

"Intensity is one thing, but common courtesy is always necessary and expected, at least by me. After my '67 L71 suffered a dreaded "NTFP" call on the engine pad at a Regional, even though it had an NCRS verified tank sticker inspection as a real deal L71 when it left St. Louis, a member (and higher level judge) first last name who I thought was an old friend offered me an unstamped, proper date coded L71 block. I said why would I want to replace my correct dated coded but pad re-stamped block, and first last name said: "Well at least with my block then car would be honest and people won't look down their noses at you and snicker behind your back"…..true story."

I promise you if you post that you are accomplishing two things first you are warning the rest of us about the supposed friend and second you are notifying first last name you think it was uncalled for.

[Michael J.]

Re: 67/435

I agree, Michael, but, common courtesy is a two way street.

To read the TDB, one would think it's only judges who, occasionally, behave badly. I've witnessed owners behaving badly but, I know it's the exception, rather than the rule. I don't feel the need to bring it up, over and over.

I was raised to follow the Golden Rule. I'm sure I've strayed, a time or two (thousand) but, we should all, in my opinion, treat others as we would wish to be treated.

Kramden

I agree, it is a two way street and no one is immune from the pressure. But there is a clear distinction and difference between an owner and a judge, the owner is powerless and the judge is not. The owner is always at a distinct disadvantage in any judging situation, and has zero credibility with the higher ups at NCRS. So I do expect much more from judges than owners.

[Michael J.]

Re: 67/435

This is indeed unfortunate and these type individuals deserve to be identified, I would suggest that in the future in a post such as below you add a few words - please see bold

"Intensity is one thing, but common courtesy is always necessary and expected, at least by me. After my '67 L71 suffered a dreaded "NTFP" call on the engine pad at a Regional, even though it had an NCRS verified tank sticker inspection as a real deal L71 when it left St. Louis, a member (and higher level judge) first last name who I thought was an old friend offered me an unstamped, proper date coded L71 block. I said why would I want to replace my correct dated coded but pad re-stamped block, and first last name first last name you think it was uncalled for.

I get your point Roy, and don't disagree, but this happened several years ago and this person and I have talked this out and come to an understanding of what he meant and his background story for it all.

[Mark D.]

Re: 67/435

Michael,

I respectfully disagree.

What is an NCRS higher up? Would you please define that? Class warfare is not productive, in my opinion. Judges are not paid employees of NCRS. We all volunteer and pay our own way.

Car owners can, and should, speak up for themselves. There is a defined path to challenge any judges call.

You say you spoke to the judge that offended you and resolved your differences so, you don't care to mention his name but, you readily bring it back out for all to see.

Again, we should ALL do our best to behave well.

Mark

[Michael J.]

Re: 67/435

Michael,

I respectfully disagree.

What is an NCRS higher up? Would you please define that? Class warfare is not productive, in my opinion. Judges are not paid employees of NCRS. We all volunteer and pay our own way.

Car owners can, and should, speak up for themselves. There is a defined path to challenge any judges call.

You say you spoke to the judge that offended you and resolved your differences so, you don't care to mention his name but, you readily bring it back out for all to see.

Again, we should ALL do our best to behave well.

Mark

Yes, we should, and thus even questioning a judge's call or behavior is a difficult thing to ever do, and most never do and just grumble in silence. I didn't for many years, but by "higher ups" I mean the National Team Lead and National Judging Chair. Maybe you have some credibility with them and can get them to listen and moderate a call or respond, being a long time and experienced judge on the inside, but I and most owners do not. Yes, there is a defined path to question, but that and a dollar will buy you a latte, in my experience. Your experience may vary, I may be the only one that has ever had an issue and had no responses.

And I will say that over 15 years of having different cars judged in many different car organizations (I won't go into the disaster the National Shelby judging has become), NCRS is head and shoulders above, and by far the very best that exists, so don't get me wrong, I am very happy with NCRS and will continue to participate and enter cars and mostly enjoy my friends and the great judging schools and seminars. But, I do think constant surveillance is necessary to maintain this incredible standard, and there should be involvement by the higher ups to ensure owners have some voice, or at least seem to.

[Dave S.]

Re: 67/435

Yes, we should, and thus even questioning a judge's call or behavior is a difficult thing to ever do, and most never do and just grumble in silence. I didn't for many years, but by "higher ups" I mean the National Team Lead and National Judging Chair. Maybe you have some credibility with them and can get them to listen and moderate a call or respond, being a long time and experienced judge on the inside, but I and most owners do not. Yes, there is a defined path to question, but that and a dollar will buy you a latte, in my experience. Your experience may vary, I may be the only one that has ever had an issue and had no responses.

And I will say that over 15 years of having different cars judged in many different car organizations (I won't go into the disaster the National Shelby judging has become), NCRS is head and shoulders above, and by far the very best that exists, so don't get me wrong, I am very happy with NCRS and will continue to participate and enter cars and mostly enjoy my friends and the great judging schools and seminars. But, I do think constant surveillance is necessary to maintain this incredible standard, and there should be involvement by the higher ups to ensure owners have some voice, or at least seem to.

This is is a very interesting and informative thread.
As an NCRS purist I agree fully with Mark, Ara etc. on the judging process and how it is done. It is definitely not for every member or for every car.
On Michael's point about a judge offering parts for sale I recall vividly being at a Regional in Gettysburg a few years ago and Roy Sinor devoted an entire 1 point judging school on that exact subject. He indicated that any judge doing that would be subject to his/her judging status being severely scrutinized. I know I took note of that edict and know many others did as well. I suspect the current NJC agrees but he would have to comment specifically. Maybe it's a good time to clarify the NCRS position on that.

[Patrick B.]

Re: 67/435

Based on the picture of Michael's L-71 pad that has been on the TDB before, it looked completely TFP. I could not understand why it was criticized at all. A real L-71 with a masterful restoration engine should be welcomed by a National Corvette "Restorers" Society. This is not Bloomington, set up by dealers hawking the exclusivity of rare cars with "original" blocks.

The suspicion and hair-trigger condemnation of 67 L-71s is a little over the top. Real ones are not that rare. About one in six 67 Corvettes is a real L-71, and it took 3 years of LT-1 production to exceed that single year of L-71 production. We all know that the 5 year warrantee seemed like race sponsorship to many original owners and that the valve springs were a disaster, so the loss of so many original blocks is no mystery, nor is the desire for owners to regain what had been lost over the years. I am lucky to have the born-with block for my L-71, but it has 2 sleeves and serious furnace brazing in the lifter gallery area. I hope it holds together, but I'll put together a restoration block if not. And, it would be a good accomplishment to make one as good as Micheal's.

[Mark D.]

Re: 67/435

I do believe a mentoring program, for those having their car(s) judged for the first time, would be beneficial

The mentor(s), chosen by NCRS, would be available to prepare the car owner for the process. Perhaps, the mentor could stand with the owner, and be afforded the opportunity to offer guidance during the debrief.

Perhaps it would alleviate some anxiety on both sides if the clipboard.

[Mark D.]

Re: 67/435

I owned a 69 L88 that I took through NCRS judging, all the way to Duntov. Very few of the judges knew me from Adam's house cat. I had a great time, was treated well and never once hesitated to stand up for myself, when I felt it was necessary. It went on to get a Bloomington Gold and entered the BG Hall of Fame.

It was a restamped block.

[Michael J.]

Re: 67/435

That would be an excellent idea, and also maybe an impartial third party arbiter/mediator (like we used for unions at our refineries) to be involved in disputes and issues if they arise. That would give owners some feeling of having a voice in the process.

I need to clarify about my friend/judge and his comments. He did not judge my car, he did not make any offer to purchase parts until several months later as we discussed the results, and he indicated he was not necessarily speaking for himself, but speaking for the majority of people he knows at NCRS who consider anyone messing with an engine pad as being dishonest.

[Michael J.]

Re: 67/435

Mind sharing what year that happened?